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***Official*** New Zealand in the West Indies 2014

RossTaylorsBox

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Pleased with that effort. In hindsight dropping Blackwood for Shillingford cost the Windies the series. Ramdin's captaincy was also woeful.

For me, the thing to take out of this series is that we won with hardly any batting contributions from Taylor and McCullum. Latham as a potential solution to our never ending opener issues, Williamson being a beast and Neesham continuing to look comfortable in test cricket are great signs going forward. I still have reservations about our fourth bowler. When the spinners are bad, they're real bad. As a side note, Neil Wagner is one of the most punchable people I've ever seen and if he wasn't playing for New Zealand I think he'd be my most hated player.
 

BackFootPunch

International 12th Man
As a side note, Neil Wagner is one of the most punchable people I've ever seen and if he wasn't playing for New Zealand I think he'd be my most hated player.
I love how riled up people get about Wagner :laugh:

I can absolutely see why it happens too. He's honestly such a great bloke though, it's astonishing how little we see of it on the field.

I reckon he must need to get himself that fired up and niggly in order to perform at his best. No way could he ever do it if he had a more relaxed attitude. Everything has to be at 100% or it doesn't work for him.
 

kyear2

International Coach
Pleased with that effort. In hindsight dropping Blackwood for Shillingford cost the Windies the series. Ramdin's captaincy was also woeful.

For me, the thing to take out of this series is that we won with hardly any batting contributions from Taylor and McCullum. Latham as a potential solution to our never ending opener issues, Williamson being a beast and Neesham continuing to look comfortable in test cricket are great signs going forward. I still have reservations about our fourth bowler. When the spinners are bad, they're real bad. As a side note, Neil Wagner is one of the most punchable people I've ever seen and if he wasn't playing for New Zealand I think he'd be my most hated player.
Wasn't only in hindsight, and yes Ramdin's captaincy and keeping was woeful.
 

Blocky

Banned
Yeah New Zealand comprehensively the better side over that time. The only thing I would say is we picked a much better group of players for this series and who knows how competitive this squad would have been in New Zealand last year. They certainly couldn't have been worse as Taylor and Roach were moving the ball as much as Southee and Boult in this series whereas Gabriel and Best didn't move it off the straight.

As I said earlier, I reckon the teams are even on talent but NZ have the match winning mentality that has been developed over the last 3 series and by having a relatively settled side. I'm hopeful now that we are selecting stronger teams and have nearly stumbled upon the best xi, we can start developing that ourselves, starting with a thumping of Bangladesh in a couple of months.
I disagree. The Windies have markedly improved in the last couple of years but they still rely an awful lot on consistent performance of their settled stars ( Gayle, Bravo, Chanderpaul and Ramdin) - this is the first series I can recall in quite some time where younger players stepped up for the Windies in Holder, Braithwaite and Blackwood. In the case of Holder and Blackwood, it's the first time I can recall (possibly since Bravo) that people playing in their debut matches stepped up and performed for the Windies which is heartening to see.

I took heat for saying that the NZ first class scene was much better and of a higher standard than the Windies but I'll reiterate that I still believe that and will point to the performance of our younger players, or players who have recently come back into test cricket after a while in domestic - you've got Watling, Latham, Boult, Neesham, Anderson and to a lesser extent Craig all coming into the side after either periods of absence (Watling) or for their first few series and stepping up with performances that assist in victories. The Windies still require their old stalwarts and experience hands to play above average games for them to have a chance (i.e Bravo and his tonne, Gayle spanking 80 quick runs, Chanderpaul's consistency throughout, Ramdin chipping in with late order runs) - where as NZ are getting as much out of players entering test cricket in the last two years as they do the guys that have been around for the last five to six years. That's a big difference in being consistent, because you can't rely on your stars constantly performing.

Signs are great for NZ - has a top tier seam attack in Wagner, Southee and Boult and there is no reason they shouldn't play 60 to 70 tests together in the next six or so years. I've seen signs in Craig that he could improve enough to be a promising bowling all rounder, similar to the role Vettori used to play for us. He won't be as successful as Vettori, but then with our seam attack he doesn't need to be.

We're starting to generate competition for spots in 3, 4, 5, 6 with Neesham, Anderson, Ryder, Mitchell, Ronchi and Munro all looking like they could do a job for us there. We have a near world class batsman occupying 7 for us.

If Latham can continue his form from domestic through to international as per his start, we may have unlocked one of the openers we require and this season in domestic, we're seeing a tonne of established middle order players with track records of success make moves towards opening the batting (i.e Brownlie) but it's still a hole in our line up that holds us back.

Be an interesting couple of years, especially if Taylor can get out of throwing his wicket away, we somehow integrate Ryder back into the side and our selectors start putting our best 11 on the park, rather than a project 11 around what-ifs - i.e "What if Sodhi wasn't utterly ****."
 

Blocky

Banned
Pleased with that effort. In hindsight dropping Blackwood for Shillingford cost the Windies the series. Ramdin's captaincy was also woeful.

For me, the thing to take out of this series is that we won with hardly any batting contributions from Taylor and McCullum. Latham as a potential solution to our never ending opener issues, Williamson being a beast and Neesham continuing to look comfortable in test cricket are great signs going forward. I still have reservations about our fourth bowler. When the spinners are bad, they're real bad. As a side note, Neil Wagner is one of the most punchable people I've ever seen and if he wasn't playing for New Zealand I think he'd be my most hated player.
Depending on who you ask, Blackwood was dropped for Holder or Shillingford. Holder scored 90 runs total, Shillingford scored 40 runs without being dismissed. It's an awful lot of pressure on a guy in his second series to score more than they contributed with the bat. What NZ did very well in this test was up the pressure on the bowling attack, in the second test and even first test, they allowed the bowlers to settle on lines and lengths without going after loose bowling - in this match, they went at a much higher run rate which was good to see.

I still say had Wagner played all three tests, NZ would've been all over the Windies. A lot of "Ifs" in both teams selections.
 

Blocky

Banned
For every Latham there's a Rutherford.
Latham - averages 44.8 in first class cricket.
Rutherford - averages 36, owing to a couple of big scores more than consistency.

NZ tends to pick on potential, not on form. In some occasions that pays off ( Neesham, Anderson ) - but in top order batting? Give me the grafter who plays within his limitations.
 

Hurricane

Hall of Fame Member
some quotes from the rum shop

I am surprised by the line of criticism about the 5 bowlers. There was a lot of criticism in the first test re the 4, but the key thing here is that having played the 4 in the previous two tests, the 3 main bowlers would have been expected to be fatigued. While Roach has found a new lease of life, Benn in this 2nd innings and Taylor, since the last innings of the 2nd test, have looked fatigued. I would contend that the move by management was pleasantly proactive. The fact that Shillingford was so ineffectual on a Kensington pitch that has been perhaps more helpful to spinners than pacers over the last few years, was not that predictable given his relatively decent performance in the first test.

As to the Bim pitch having life - well you must be in some kind of time warp - those days long done.
WI made a decision.

It backfired because of a whole host of factors. They underbowled Holder, and Shilly AND Taylor didnt take wickets, plus they dropped crucial catches and gave away their wickets.

There wasnt ONE clincher.

The biggest issue was that the team got complacent.
.
...
 

Howsie

International Captain
God help us if Southee or Boult ever go down injured. Because as decent as his recent returns have been Neil Wagner is still trash. I seriously have no idea how this guy continues to pick up wickets. No accuracy, medium paced and he still can't land the ball on the seam to save himself. It boggles the mind.

The sooner Doug Bracewell sorts himself out and starts swinging the ball again, or a young guy like Henry or Wheeler stays injury free the better.
 

Howsie

International Captain
Latham - averages 44.8 in first class cricket.
Rutherford - averages 36, owing to a couple of big scores more than consistency.

NZ tends to pick on potential, not on form. In some occasions that pays off ( Neesham, Anderson ) - but in top order batting? Give me the grafter who plays within his limitations.
I think you'll find that removing his test stats, Rutherford averages over 40 in first class cricket too.
 

Bahnz

Hall of Fame Member
I think Rutherford averaged 40/41 when he was picked for New Zealand. However he'd scored only about 2/3rds as many runs as Latham at the time of Latham's callup, so it was a much bigger punt.
 

hendrix

Hall of Fame Member
Latham - averages 44.8 in first class cricket.
Rutherford - averages 36, owing to a couple of big scores more than consistency.

NZ tends to pick on potential, not on form. In some occasions that pays off ( Neesham, Anderson ) - but in top order batting? Give me the grafter who plays within his limitations.
Yeah that's fair.

I don't think describing Latham as a grafter is quite accurate. He's pretty bloody talented. A lot of people may criticise him for the way he got out in the second innings but he's a magnificent puller of the ball and it was there to be hit. I don't want him to be playing too much within himself and I hope he doesn't shelve that shot just because he screwed up the execution on that occasion.
 

Bahnz

Hall of Fame Member
Here's a question to rile up hendrix: when was the last time an NZ team won three test series in a row (excluding zimbang)?
 

Hurricane

Hall of Fame Member
Pursuant to a couple of big knocks, rather than consistency of performance.
i can't recall clearly if you are right. I partially recall him having a few decent innings that season.

What always bothered me about him as a prospect was his FC SR. It seemed too high to predict any sustained run of success.
 

RossTaylorsBox

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I love how riled up people get about Wagner :laugh:

I can absolutely see why it happens too. He's honestly such a great bloke though, it's astonishing how little we see of it on the field.

I reckon he must need to get himself that fired up and niggly in order to perform at his best. No way could he ever do it if he had a more relaxed attitude. Everything has to be at 100% or it doesn't work for him.
Yeah, I totally get that it works for him, he seems to get wickets of decent batsman from totally innocuous deliveries. Braithwaite done by a floater, Chanderpaul strangled down legside in this test. Even in the Indian series, a short wide nothing delivery got Kohli and Dhoni was done by a slower bouncer of all things. Granted, you could say that it's from the pressure he builds but I've never seen a Wagner dismissal where I've thought "That's an awesome delivery" like I've done for Southee and Boult. On the other hand, I guess that's not really the job of a third seamer and if it means he keeps taking scalps then I'm not complaining.
 

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