*Official* New Zealand in Sri Lanka 2012

[Hurricane]

he's not part time but he's not test standard either. Right now he would be a bits and pieces player.

 

[Howsie]

Flynn - 4. A good fifty. Did not come to the party in other innings. Needs to get more consistent.

He needs to score some 100's tbh. He's good enough to score runs at this level, well get going anyway. He just gives it away too easily.

 

[Flem274*]

Errrr, respected? The fact that Sri Lanka were just trying to survive played a massive part in Astle not getting blasted around the ground. He's terrible and in all probability will never be near test standard. He bowled a couple of decent deliveries but for 90 percent of his work he looked part time.

He's exactly the sort of bowler you want to come on when you need runs to drag yourself out of the poo tbh, and they did a lot of blocking.

And you can't write a 26 year old off for good, especially a spinner. He's not test standard right now but give him another 4-5 seasons and he may well be a quality bowler. It's like writing Southee off for good when he was bowling 130kph half volleys with slow loopy swing.

 

[Bahnz]

what does everyone think of Ryder opening?

I think if Ryder had a better head on his shoulders, he'd be a big candidate for one of the opening spots. Good defense and knows where his off stump is. Also, with McCullum he'd make it a left-right combo which is always nice to have. But at the moment, I think if he does come back into the side it'll have to be somewhere less stressful, probably number 6.

 

[Hurricane]

I think if Ryder had a better head on his shoulders, he'd be a big candidate for one of the opening spots. Good defense and knows where his off stump is. Also, with McCullum he'd make it a left-right combo which is always nice to have. But at the moment, I think if he does come back into the side it'll have to be somewhere less stressful, probably number 6.

I think and I have nothing to base this on, but it would help McCullum's game as he would observe Ryder pacing his inning better at the other end while still scoring at a good clip. This would rub off on McCullum I hope.

 

[Flem274*]

Nothing will stop McCullum being McCullum except McCullum. He always scores a big ton every season with good patience to remind us how good he could be, but then he comes out and bats like the second coming of Craig McMillan again. I really thought he turned a corner with that match saving double hundred against India in India, but evidently not.

 

[Prince EWS]

I still think Astle looks like he's got a lot more to work with as a batsman than a bowler, even if the bowling is clearly his stronger suit domestically at the moment. 26 is still young for a spinner but I still really doubt he'll ever be Test class on that discipline alone.

As I tried to say to Phlegm when he asked questions about his bowling speed, I think Astle does a great job of looking like a better bowler than he is, and I love him for it, but it's going to take some serious improvement to get him anywhere near the standard required IMO.

 

[Howsie]

He's exactly the sort of bowler you want to come on when you need runs to drag yourself out of the poo tbh, and they did a lot of blocking.

And you can't write a 26 year old off for good, especially a spinner. He's not test standard right now but give him another 4-5 seasons and he may well be a quality bowler. It's like writing Southee off for good when he was bowling 130kph half volleys with slow loopy swing.

There is a big difference between writing off a 26 year old leggie, that only took up the art full time two seasons ago, and writing off a 20 year old fast bowler. The chances Astle ever becomes test standard are slim, like one percent. Most guys who bowl it all their lives never master it, what makes Astle so special?

 

[Flem274*]

There is a big difference between writing off a 26 year old leggie, that only took up the art full time two seasons ago, and writing off a 20 year old fast bowler. The chances Astle ever becomes test standard are slim, like one percent. Most guys who bowl it all their lives never master it, what makes Astle so special?

Nothing, but he's still got 10 or so years left as a pro. I'm not going to call him Forever Dire just yet. I save that for Anton Devcich.

 

[Bahnz]

There is a big difference between writing off a 26 year old leggie, that only took up the art full time two seasons ago, and writing off a 20 year old fast bowler. The chances Astle ever becomes test standard are slim, like one percent. Most guys who bowl it all their lives never master it, what makes Astle so special?

Eh, spinners in recent years have tended to come good a lot later than quicks. Nobody really thought Graeme Swann would amount to much until he suddenly got serious and started taking bags of wickets around 2008ish.

 

[Pup Clarke]

Wasn't Astle a top order batsman until recently anyway? Agree with Howsie - there's every chance Astle won't be a better bowler come 2022 cause he bowls the leggies basically.

 

[Prince EWS]

Wasn't Astle a top order batsman until recently anyway?

Yeah. He was a prodigy opening batsman, failed at that quite young and came back into domestic cricket a couple of seasons later as a leg spinner. I still think he's got more to work with as a bat though tbh, even if it didn't work out in his early 20s. He's definitely a more effective bowler now than he is a batsman but I think he's bluffing.

 

[Flem274*]

How do you get Astle batting well though? His technique is textbook and he was the star of his age group world cup. Was 3rd highest run scorer or something. There isn't anything that can be improved except the runs tally. He's got a gun eye, a gun technqiue, a lot of guts and can concentrate. WTF do you do with him?

 

[BeeGee]

Patel... Did enough to hold Dan off from taking his spot.

There seems to be a lot of people who continue to think that Vettori is a spin bowler and that he's competing for a bowler's spot in this team.

He isn't.

He is neither a spin bowler, nor even a bowler. He is a batting all rounder who bowls slow left arm. He is competing for the spot Franklin occupied in the first test (batting all rounder).

The batting all rounder's responsibilities (in this order):
1 Score runs with the bat.
2 Keep things tight at one end with the ball. Any wickets are a bonus.

 

[Prince EWS]

There seems to be a lot of people who continue to think that Vettori is a spin bowler and that he's competing for a bowler's spot in this team.

He isn't.

He is neither a spin bowler, nor even a bowler. He is a batting all rounder who bowls slow left arm. He is competing for the spot Franklin occupied in the first test (batting all rounder).

The batting all rounder's responsibilities (in this order):
1 Score runs with the bat.
2 Keep things tight at one end with the ball. Any wickets are a bonus.

I agree 100%, however he hasn't scored any runs in bloody ages. There was a general train of thought not long ago that if Vettori's batting regressed he'd still be the best spinner in the country (despite how average his bowling was) and command a place for balance anyway, and I think Patel has put that to bed to some extent. If Vettori can't score any runs he shouldn't be making the side over someone like Watling because the myth of him being the best spinner regardless of how crap his bowling had become has been debunked.

 

[BeeGee]

I agree 100%, however he hasn't scored any runs in bloody ages. There was a general train of thought not long ago that if Vettori's batting regressed he'd still be the best spinner in the country (despite how average his bowling was) and command a place for balance anyway, and I think Patel has put that to bed to some extent. If Vettori can't score any runs he shouldn't be making the side over someone like Watling because the myth of him being the best spinner regardless of how crap his bowling had become has been debunked.

His batting form is certainly an issue.

But the one thing Vettori has that none of his competitors have is that he has proven he's good enough to play at Test level, against any opposition. Six centuries and twenty three half centuries scored in the lower half of the batting order, imo, is a lot of talent to discard based on form, especially since no other NZ all rounders are really putting their hand up. I personally would give him the SA series, batting at six, and reassess afterwards if he doesn't perform.

And I'm not considering any pure batsmen for the six spot because if we get into the situation where Amla and Kallis are putting together a 400 run partnership on a road, we will need that Vettori style bowler who can bowl a crap load of tight overs so our seamers can rest. The last thing we want is to bowl our seam trio into the ground and have them all fall over injured.

Five batsmen, one batting all rounder, keeper and four bowlers.

If Watling wants a place in this team he needs to play as keeper or replace one of the top five. I actually would quite like to see Watling given the chance to play as keeper in a two Test series. If only to answer the two questions I have about him: is he good enough (or could be good enough) to keep at Test level? And is he good enough to score runs at Test level against a good bowling attack?

 

[Bahnz]

I agree 100%, however he hasn't scored any runs in bloody ages. There was a general train of thought not long ago that if Vettori's batting regressed he'd still be the best spinner in the country (despite how average his bowling was) and command a place for balance anyway, and I think Patel has put that to bed to some extent. If Vettori can't score any runs he shouldn't be making the side over someone like Watling because the myth of him being the best spinner regardless of how crap his bowling had become has been debunked.

While that may be true in terms of the number of days since his last batting success, the truth is that only 4 tests have passed since Vettori made 98 on a sporty pitch at the gabba. A couple of games before that he hit a century against a strong Pakistani bowling lineup. The lack of cricket, combined with his injuries make it feel like Vettori has been out of touch for ages, but I think he deserves a lot more time as a batsman.

 

[Flem274*]

You can lock Vettori in at 7 or 8 for South Africa. The selectors won't bat him at six and Vettori has always been reluctant to bat 6.

Tbh Dan at seven with bowlers 8-11 and Watling at 6 is a decent compromise in the short term. If Ryder returns though I'd stick with Flynn at 6 and bowl Williamson as the stock bowler.

 

[Days of Grace]

Guptill
McCullum
Williamson
Taylor
Flynn
Franklin
Watling (wk)
Vettori
Bracewell
Southee
Boult

 

[Carl Bulfin]

Guptill isnt up to it. Give watling the gloves and open him up with mccullum.

team without Ryder

Watling(wk)
McCullum
Williamson
Taylor
Flynn
Brownlee
Vettori
Bracewell
Wagner/gillespie
Southee
Boult