Dick Rockett
International Vice-Captain
I have to say that watching this test is really making me wonder if my faith in Dan Vettori isn't a little misplaced...
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***Official*** New Zealand in South Africa
- Thread starter James
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Dick Rockett
International Vice-Captain
Yes, one. But sadly, I think I'm starting to agree with that sentiment. If Vettori can't take wickets on a turner like this, where (and when) will he?Blaze said:
Loony BoB
International Captain
Vettori can stay in the side as a batsman even if he isn't bowling. And since he can bowl, he will. And just because he only took one wicket on a road doesn't mean much. As for it being a turner, I haven't seen it turn much for Vettori (who has never been a big turner). You can't really compare it well with Patel given that 1) Patel is a new bowler who South Africa won't have a definite gameplan for yet (call it the 'surprise' factor), and 2) Patel was bowling it into a different area, since he spins it the other way, I believe?
EDIT: One might point out that Oram's bowling record in tests, particularly in the last two to three years, is abysmal. More so than Vettori. Eight wickets in his last eight tests at an average of 70.75.
EDIT: One might point out that Oram's bowling record in tests, particularly in the last two to three years, is abysmal. More so than Vettori. Eight wickets in his last eight tests at an average of 70.75.
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Dick Rockett
International Vice-Captain
Yeah, I know what you mean. I'm just getting tired of making excuses for him in my own mind, and to others. He looks good, but just doesn't take the wickets. Also, he can't justify a place in the side for his batting. He's good, but he still only averages around 24-25. Oram, on the other hand, most certainly does justify a place on batting alone.Loony BoB said:
Sir Redman
State Vice-Captain
Yeah, I've been very disappointed with Vettori. I don't know what's wrong with him - he gives the ball good flight, varies his pace well and is pretty accurate, but just doesn't get wickets.
He'll never get dropped though, and definately deserves his place in the team batting at 8, but it really is frustrating that he doesn't get any wickets. But anyway, he's still better than Giles
He'll never get dropped though, and definately deserves his place in the team batting at 8, but it really is frustrating that he doesn't get any wickets. But anyway, he's still better than Giles
NZTailender
I can't believe I ate the whole thing
When you watch Vettori bowl you get the feeling that if he had a few sessions to change his tehcnique he'd start turning the ball more and be more of a threat, IMO.
At the same time, I think, most sides see him as the number 1 threat bowler, and play him accordingley.
At the same time, I think, most sides see him as the number 1 threat bowler, and play him accordingley.
Loony BoB
International Captain
Judging Vettori's current skill with the bat on his career average is a bad idea.mundaneyogi said:
He averages 52.81 with the bat in his last 10 tests. Four matches against Aus, two against Zim, three against Windies, one against South Africa. There's nothing "24-25" about that.
Attached is a graph showing how, the further you look back, the worse it looks with him. Saying that Vettori averages 24-25 is like saying that Hamish Marshall, prior to the Windies series, was arguably our best batsmen.
Statistics don't lie, of course - over the course of Vettori's lengthy career, yeah, he has averaged in the 20's. But the stats also say that Vettori is not the player he has been for the majority of his career. For the last 25 tests (possibly closer to 30), he's been averaging more with the bat than the ball. In the last ten, he averages over 20 more runs with the bat than the ball. That's something any allrounder in the world would be happy with.
Vettori earns his spot just as much as Oram does on current form. If not the same, then more than.
Attachments
Dick Rockett
International Vice-Captain
Wow, I didn't realise that. Those are impressive figures. Certainly not trying to disprove your theory, but I'd be interested to know how many not outs are included in that period, also how many runs were scored against poorer teams. I guess the reason I ask is that, if you're going to advocate his inclusion on the basis of his batting, you'd want to be sure he could cut it against the best attacks.Loony BoB said:
Dick Rockett
International Vice-Captain
In Dan's defence though, perhaps the recent tests against Australia have shown that those Bangladeshi wickets may be worth more than we initially thought?_Ed_ said:
Loony BoB
International Captain
As far as playing poorer nations is concerned, they're all playing against the same teams. Don't blame Vettori if the other batsmen in the side get out for a duck against Bangladesh and he doesn't. No matter how you look at it, Vettori is a class batsman in the team right now.
Dick Rockett
International Vice-Captain
I totally get your points, but there's probably a reason Vettori's batting at number 8. As your stats have shown, he's undoubtedly in good form right now, but that doesn't necessarily mean he justifies a place on his batting alone. He's still picked primarily for his bowling, and as many people have pointed out, the wickets just will not come. Personally, I rate his batting, but it's the bowling that concerns me. I've had one too many occasions now where I've gone, "Yeah, Dan's on, looking forward to some wickets tumbling", then seeing him harmlessly padded away.Loony BoB said:
Smudge
Hall of Fame Member
Loony Bob,
Why can't we compare Patel and Vettori? Dan would probably have more footmarks to bowl into than Patel, considering both sides are predominantly full with right-armers (bar Boje, Franklin and Vettori, himself.
Patel has definitely been more penetrating in this test.
Why can't we compare Patel and Vettori? Dan would probably have more footmarks to bowl into than Patel, considering both sides are predominantly full with right-armers (bar Boje, Franklin and Vettori, himself.
Patel has definitely been more penetrating in this test.
Now that this test is going to be a draw, I'm looking ahead to the 3rd Test. I would like to see Jamie How & Papps opening the innings. I would drop Styris as he has been ineffective with the bat in his last 3 innings although Astle is lucky to survive even though he scored a 50 in the first innings of this current test. Fulton would drop back to four. I would pick Mills ahead of Martin and depends if the Johannesburg wicket would suit spin I'd have Mason in for Patel. Chris Martin has been very average with his bowling so I would like to see Mills replace him.
My Side for 3rd Test
Papps
How
Fleming
Fulton
Astle
Oram
McCullum
Vettori
Franklin
Mills
Mason/Patel (only if wicket suits spin)
My Side for 3rd Test
Papps
How
Fleming
Fulton
Astle
Oram
McCullum
Vettori
Franklin
Mills
Mason/Patel (only if wicket suits spin)
thedarkmullet
School Boy/Girl Captain
I dont see Stryris getting dropped for changes up top, especially considering the 50 opening partnership in this match.Sw1fty said:
Blaze
Banned
Styris will be dropped IMO. He just isn't with it atm.
I just hate how the media go on about Vettori being a strike weapon, even Ian Smith and co who are supposed to know a bit about cricket talk about him in the same breath as Bond.
The fact of the matter is that you can't rely on Vettori to win you a Test match with the ball...
I just hate how the media go on about Vettori being a strike weapon, even Ian Smith and co who are supposed to know a bit about cricket talk about him in the same breath as Bond.
The fact of the matter is that you can't rely on Vettori to win you a Test match with the ball...
thedarkmullet
School Boy/Girl Captain
Do you think he should be or that he will be? I think based on this batting effort Bracewell and co arn't gonna be looking to change the lineup, even if Styris did fail.Blaze said:
Blaze
Banned
I think he should be. Wouldn't want to predict what Bracewell is going to do though...thedarkmullet said:
He has taken a couple of koncks to the head this summer and just doesn't look like he is approaching his batting in the right mind state.
Edit- that isn't to say I don't think that Scott Styris should be discarded. I think he is one of our better batsmen, he just isn't going great atm.