• Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

*Official** New Zealand in England

badgerhair

U19 Vice-Captain
Craig said:
What do the English people on here think of Richard johnson?
Mostly that he's not fit. He wasn't fit ten years ago when he was picked to go to South Africa and had to pull out, and that's basically been the story ever since. Remarkably, he wasn't injured when everyone else was last year and managed to turn up for a couple of games, but that was enough.

If fit, he's near to international class. Near enough, in fact, to not be embarrassing if selected. But you would generally hope that you wouldn't have to fall back on him.

One of my favourite memories is of 1994, when Warks visited Lord's while Lara was in the middle of his streak of 35 consecutive centuries. The crowd on the Saturday had been sparse while Lara got about 80*, but the ground was almost packed for the Sunday League game the next day. The first Warks wicket fell, and out marched Lara to cheers and a buzz of excited anticipation. Johnson ran up, bowled, hit Lara on the pad and appealed. There was a brief hush as the umpire raised his finger before the Middx fans and team exploded with delight.

Cheers,

Mike
 

Craig

World Traveller
Tim said:
Whats the deal with the game today? is it 50 overs or are NZ just getting some batting in & then having a few overs to bowl?

At the moment we're 81/1 after 23.4 overs so a decent start...lol Papps got a first-baller, he's going to have to hope he strikes form against Worc's then.
Are you suggesting Fleming will open? Because their isnt anybody else to open.
 

spofta

Banned
Poms Have no chance

The poms will be slaughtered by nz in the upcoming series. The nz team is a lot stronger and Fleming will exploit vaughns inability to lead the english team. Frankly i think Vaughn would struggle to lead a line. Take the captaincy off him he is much better without the added pressure.
Flitoff has his days but he is by no means a match for cairns and oram. Styris is a better player the freddie.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
spofta said:
The nz team is a lot stronger and Fleming will exploit vaughns inability to lead the english team.
Funny that, because all reports I've read and heard of Vaughan's captaincy in the West Indies have been glowing.

spofta said:
Flitoff has his days but he is by no means a match for cairns and oram. Styris is a better player the freddie.
Each to their own I guess, but I would suggest you at least watch Freddie Flintoff before writing him off - his averages belie his talent and the major effect he has on the team.
 

Tim

Cricketer Of The Year
Sucked in again Marc, the best thing is just to ignore people who make off the planet comments like those.

Craig: Yeah pretty much...if they want to play both McMillan & Astle someone has to face the chop & it'll most likely be Papps..Bracewell said at the start of the tour that Fleming could open if required.
 

Craig

World Traveller
Yeah Papps would be the most dispensible player at the moment in the team.

Mark Richardson needs to me to start to kick on with his starts. He will certainly play in all three Tests, but he is stratching around for 138 balls, making 44 and throwing it all away with a dumb shot.

It's ok to be slowed scoring, BUT he needs to make the big scores to acompy his time at the crease. It looks like a wasted innings IMO.

He doesnt need to start playing slashing square drives or beutiful cover drives or flicks though mid wicket, but looking a few more singles behind square on the leg side or look for gaps in the field and rotate the strike.

Its all he needs to do.
 

Loony BoB

International Captain
I think it would be insane to drop Richardson for a start - I'd be happy with a guy who consistently scored 44. He's even ranked in the top 20 batsmen in the world, I believe. We complain so often about insonsistency, yet when someone is consistent we complain again? I hope not! He is capable of the big scores, too - I'm sure he's proven that as often as Fleming did pre-county cricket (er, respective of the amount of innings they've had).

Papps on the other hand is an interesting story - he's a young chap, so we have time to groom him. At the same time, he's pretty inconsistent, as with most openers for NZ. But I think we really do need to try to stay with a couple of openers for longer than a couple of series. Maybe we could have groomed a couple of openers over a year to become world class batsmen, but we just never gave them the chance after they didn't perform, and replaced them with another inconsitent non-performer and nothing ever changed. It's time we took the risk of sticking with our guns and letting Richardson and Papps learn over time. Our middle order can, in the meantime, back them up when they fail - they are used to it, after all. In the long run, I think it would prove invaluable.
 

Kent

State 12th Man
Anzac - Oram at #8 means your preferred attack would be something like this, right?

Bond
Butler
Martin
Oram
(Styris, McMillan)

One of NZ's major problems in recent times has been taking second innings wickets. Look at the most recent occasions NZ took the full 20 in tests -

* McMillan (of all people) getting the crucial breakthrough at Eden Park.
* The dodgy wickets against India.
* Bond's 5/78 in Barbados.

In between those times, NZ have had 7 draws in 13 tests.

Sure we could score more quickly, but where do you think the second innings wickets will come from? Say Bond is on a limited workload and Butler's ego is busy dishing up short balls that reach McCullum on the third bounce, who steps up to the plate?

IMo the only possible solution is finding that teen prodigy buried in the rubble of Vettori's woes, or giving Bruce Martin a chance to see what a 5th day pitch actually looks like.
 

Loony BoB

International Captain
Oh man, Butler. Never liked that guy for some reason. I'd put Tuffey over him any day of the week. With Tuffey, Martin, Bond, Oram you have your seam bowlers sorted, in my opinion. If we're desperate for something else, Styris, McMillan and Astle are perfectly capable of taking a wicket when needed, and Richardson can come into play, too - until he proves himself a bad bowler, I class him as an average one. He's been good in the ten overs he's played. ;)

Richardson, Papps, Fleming, Astle, McMillan, McCullum, Styris, Oram, Tuffey, Martin, Bond. What more do you need? A spinner? Then remove one of your seam bowlers. Makes sense to me. I believe there is enough talent to finish off any match with that group. If not, then it's not a matter of needing more bowlers, it's a matter of the bowlers needing to improve becuase that SHOULD be more than enough talent.
 

Kent

State 12th Man
Loony BoB said:
Papps on the other hand is an interesting story - he's a young chap, so we have time to groom him. At the same time, he's pretty inconsistent, as with most openers for NZ.
A bit early for that label, isn't it?

Papps was a run-machine for most of our domestic summer. Sure it was only against the James Franklins and Andrew Schwasses, but he showed a lot of focus to keep racking up scores, rather than getting bored or arrogant like Ross Taylor seems to at times.

Speaking of which...

Ross a big hit in Biss Trophy

KEITH PEEL

May 5, 2004 20:48

Ross Taylor treated Norfolk cricket lovers to a glittering exhibition of the talents for which he is hailed New Zealand's brightest young star.

The big-hitting 20-year-old hammered 72 runs off only 40 balls on his debut as Norwich Wanderers beat Lowestoft in the Stan Biss Trophy first round.

Taylor, the Kiwi Under-19 team captain last year, cracked seven sixes and five fours at Barton Turf......

....All-rounder Taylor's off-breaks had earlier brought him four wickets as Lowestoft were bowled out for 154.

“Ross is another very big signing for us and we're very excited about him,” said Wanderers' first team captain, Alistair Ponder.

“He's an outstanding young talent who is expected to break into the New Zealand Test side, sooner rather than later.”....

....New Zealand Test batsman Mathew Sinclair hit 108 for Swardeston in their win over Beccles, while Stuart Williams, their former West Indies Test player recruit, scored 68 for Fakenham in their defeat by Norwich.

full article
 

Loony BoB

International Captain
I like what a batsman can do in New Zealand, sure, but I don't consider them serious contendors for the NZ squad until they perform at international level. And don't get me wrong - the rest of my post supports what you're saying, I think Papps should be given more time. :) I'd like to see Papps and Richardson develop into the recognised opening partnership.
 

Kent

State 12th Man
Loony BoB said:
Oh man, Butler. Never liked that guy for some reason. I'd put Tuffey over him any day of the week.
Me too. :)

I think Anzac said he'd have Butler in his 1st-choice XI though, with Oram and Tuffey being one containment bowler too many.
 

nibbs

International Captain
i have never liked butler either. he's shown promise for sure in the domestic game, but he just hasn't kicked on like we all hoped. iirc he took a wicket with his 3rd or 4th ball in his debut in odis. everyone got really excited over nothing in the end.
 

Craig

World Traveller
Loony BoB said:
I think it would be insane to drop Richardson for a start - I'd be happy with a guy who consistently scored 44. He's even ranked in the top 20 batsmen in the world, I believe. We complain so often about insonsistency, yet when someone is consistent we complain again? I hope not! He is capable of the big scores, too - I'm sure he's proven that as often as Fleming did pre-county cricket (er, respective of the amount of innings they've had).

Papps on the other hand is an interesting story - he's a young chap, so we have time to groom him. At the same time, he's pretty inconsistent, as with most openers for NZ. But I think we really do need to try to stay with a couple of openers for longer than a couple of series. Maybe we could have groomed a couple of openers over a year to become world class batsmen, but we just never gave them the chance after they didn't perform, and replaced them with another inconsitent non-performer and nothing ever changed. It's time we took the risk of sticking with our guns and letting Richardson and Papps learn over time. Our middle order can, in the meantime, back them up when they fail - they are used to it, after all. In the long run, I think it would prove invaluable.
Look I never said that was the case.

I just think if he is going bat for a long time, he should start adding a few more tons. Once you reach 80+, and unless the ball is a very good, are left not out, get dismissed to a brillant catch or get run out at the non strikers end or are left not out, he should reach 100.
 

anzac

International Debutant
Kent said:
Me too. :)

I think Anzac said he'd have Butler in his 1st-choice XI though, with Oram and Tuffey being one containment bowler too many.

nope - sorry guys it was a tongue in cheek dig at the problems facing the England selectors re their quick attack - IMO Butler is a better version of their options such as Silverwood etc because at least he is consistant in his line even if his length is short - it seems to me once the English quicks tend to struggle for consistency & start serving up half volleys or short outside off.....

my preferred attack ATM would be much as Loony Bob indicates - Bond (if fit), C Martin, Tuffey & Oram as the 4 primary / recognised bowlers, Cairns & Styris as the back ups (not sure if Astle is going to be bowling) - no spin at this time of year unless it is going to turn for sure as Vettori is not a big turner of the ball & needs the pitch to work with him....

however I don't se Bond starting yet so IMO they will go with Vettori as the 4th specialist rather than Mills who is the other available bowler in the squad....

I don't think of Tuffey as a containment bowler - just that his lack of pace limits his effectiveness to take wickets unless he has the new ball - his new found consistency with line & length since IND have made him effective in containment once the ball gets older..........from memory hasn't he dropped his pace a bit since his debut series v AUS to gain control & consistency - a pity because he could do with an extra yard or two & he'd be brilliant.....

:)
 

anzac

International Debutant
Kent said:
One of NZ's major problems in recent times has been taking second innings wickets. Look at the most recent occasions NZ took the full 20 in tests -

* McMillan (of all people) getting the crucial breakthrough at Eden Park.
* The dodgy wickets against India.
* Bond's 5/78 in Barbados.

In between those times, NZ have had 7 draws in 13 tests.

Sure we could score more quickly, but where do you think the second innings wickets will come from? Say Bond is on a limited workload and Butler's ego is busy dishing up short balls that reach McCullum on the third bounce, who steps up to the plate?

IMo the only possible solution is finding that teen prodigy buried in the rubble of Vettori's woes, or giving Bruce Martin a chance to see what a 5th day pitch actually looks like.

substitute Tuffey for Butler and you've pretty much got it for the moment..............

my selections are based upon a couple of things:
* Fleming's comments about the requirement to advance the game when batting;

* as a consequence I do not agree with the subsequent selection of 5 primary bowlers particularly when you have 4 seamers who are pretty similar, IMO to advance the game you take an inherant risk re your batting lineup falling over & so you need to ensure you have depth & consistencey - I believe you need 'specialists' to do this rather than 'allrounders' and hence 6 batsmen;

* the need to select 'strike' bowlers to take 20 wickets - 5 bowlers may be a necessity if you lack firepower, but if Bond is at least as good as C Martin now appears & Tuffey can still do his thing with the new ball then we have some options there now - if we can find some effective spin then this can be used in place of the 4th seamer to take some of the workload off the quicks - particularly in the 2nd innings;

:)
 

anzac

International Debutant
Craig said:
Look I never said that was the case.

I just think if he is going bat for a long time, he should start adding a few more tons. Once you reach 80+, and unless the ball is a very good, are left not out, get dismissed to a brillant catch or get run out at the non strikers end or are left not out, he should reach 100.

I'm going to be really interested to see how this tour develops so far as the tactic to advance the game is concerned...........& in particular the makeup of the top order..........

IMO Richardson's style does NOT fit this game plan because he is unable to take singles to rotate the strike, and he can bog down the innings at the top of the order - this results in his partners having to take extra risks early to execute the game plan, and can lead to the loss of quick wickets.........

I also think that Richarsdon is aware of this and has been trying to be more aggressive in his batting as seen v RSA - it's just that he's not been able to find the gaps.........

furthermore I agree with the 'criticism' regarding his returns when considering his length of time at the crease - he has a great average but a poor strike rate so it takes him a looong time to post a score - furthermore he has an inability to convert his 50s into tons - 53 innings for 17x50 & only 3x100s.......

with the return of Astle we either have to drop a batsman & maintain only 5 specialists - Papps is new but is more aggressive than Richardson - as is every other batsman in the lineup, the other alternative is to go with only 4 specialist bowlers as opposed to the current selection of 5 - although the comments regarding McCullum at 6 tend to disregard this as an option.........

I remember a comment from Bracewell about selections based upon the best interest of the team etc, rather than individual considerations - if NZ are really serious about following the AUS example re this 'advancing the game', then it could be Richardson who becomes expendable rather than Papps.....

:cool:
 

PY

International Coach
You always need someone to anchor the top of the innings though.

I cannot believe people are considering dropping Richardson with an average like his. 20 score of 50+ in 50 innings is brilliant. To me, because you have all these attacking players who throw the bat at the ball you need to have someone who can grind innings out when it's all a bit rough and people can't play their strokes willy-nilly BUT that doesn't mean you don't need someone to hold an end down while people do the damage at the other.

PS I haven't been able to read every post here so apologies if I have the wrong end of stick. :)
 

Loony BoB

International Captain
SIX specialist batsmen?! No thanks! Same for four specialist bowlers, actually. Five and three fits me, and an all rounder and wicket keeper to make the total.

Specialist batsmen: Richardson, Papps, Fleming, Astle, (McMillan), Styris
Specialist bowlers: Bond, Tuffey, Martin
Wicket keeper: McCullum
All rounder(s): Oram, (Cairns)

Cairns and McMillan are bracketed due to Cairns leaving at the end of the series.

Richardson and Papps really need to be kept as a duo. Advancing the game is one thing, but knocking off the batsman that is regarded as our finest test batsman by PwC and is probably our most consistent batsman for a long time... that's just unthinkable. Advance the game, yes. Kick the bucket, no. It's not like we have to field an ODI team - remember, when they say they want to advance the game, they don't mean to throw away steadiness altogether. Balance is the key. If we wanted to go strictly for advancing, we'd have Adams in our lineup - listed as an all rounder!

Also, we aren't following Australia in every way. We don't have those players, you can't do that. We don't have a Gilchrist - and don't even think about saying that McCullum or Nevin is capable of scoring in the way that Gilchrist does, because there has been nothing to support that at all. If we had a Gilchrist, it would be a different story. Also, our specialist bowlers don't bat as well as Aussie's do. Look at Warne - he can make a good knock if required. Can Tuffey, Martin, Bond? Hell no! We just don't have that stuff. Can Oram? Yes! Can Oram also take wickets? Yes! Unless Vettori reverses in a miracle that all NZ'ers hope for, back to his wicket-taking state, we will not have someone who can compare with Warne as a true strike bowler who can bat amazingly. Well, we have Cairns, but he's going out soon. Oram, in my opinion, can be classed in this way, though. He's a slightly better batsman than Warne and a less talented bowler, but it's an even trade.

To say we need to put power into our batting is correct. The way to do this is not to remove our all rounders and to not have a massive tail that is incapable of holding it's own. Batting down to #8 is good, batting down to #7 just doesn't cut it. Not when you don't have a truely world class batsman in your team, like a Lara or a Dravid or a Hayden. We can't make that kind of sacrifice. NZ is made up of a team - and all the people in the team play their roles, and they play them well. We need aggressive batsmen, yes, but we can't dismiss defensive batsmen altogether. We have good bowlers, yes, but you can't throw away your all rounders. We're doing wonderfully recently - why make such a change when you've found out what works for you? We don't need changes anymore! ...er, unless Vettori buggers around too long. Then we can throw him out. Eh heh. He doesn't work, he needs fixing. The rest of the team works - don't fix 'em.

EDIT: And I agree with PY - I'll say it again, dropping someone for their inability to convert 50's to 100's is crazy when they make that many 50's in the first place. Would you rather have someone who hardly ever fires and when they do, they pull it off big time? Like Sinclair? Okay, think series-wise. Sinclair makes one double century, the match is won. He gets 20 and 0 in the next two matches - we lose the series. Richardson make 80, 70 and 30. We win two matches, we lose one, we win the series. Consistency is invaluable. Of course, one player doesn't win a match, but you get the idea.
 
Last edited:

Top