***Official*** New Zealand Domestic Season 2015/16

[Zinzan]

Not really.

Oh it's a different default position? Righto....

 

[hendrix]

Oh it's a different default position? Righto....

One is judging a person on what we've seen and heard happen on camera.

The other is apparently judging someone for having *** with a drunk chick under circumstances that we don't actually know about. Quite different.

Moreover, feminism isn't about casting judgement on people.

 

[Zinzan]

One is judging a person on what we've seen and heard happen on camera.

The other is apparently judging someone for having *** with a drunk chick under circumstances that we don't actually know about. Quite different.

Moreover, feminism isn't about casting judgement on people.

Let's not even go there, this thread doesn't deserve the diversion.

 

[NZTailender]

It's again coming down to putting thoughts into his head, making it seem like it's his modus operandi to find wasted girls to have *** with when we don't know what the hell he was thinking. Just hold off on that, it's not really fair. Drunk people have ***. We've already heard that she in all likelihood did not fall asleep in the bathroom - given the video evidence, and that the alleged incident took place the morning after, not when she was apparently incapacitated. The point being let's not disgrace a guy for having *** after a night out on the town.

Again, if consent was given etc.

Never actually said that was what he does, but it is a common way of operating and those that do it don't even realise, because their perception of whats okay is all ****ed up.

Also, it's entirely possible she could've fallen asleep for a short amount of time in the toilet; I've passed out on the loo only to be woken up a few minutes later by a friend wanting to use it.

 

[NZTailender]

Having since read there may be more than one allegation, that obviously changes the way it looks for sure.

But, yeah I agree there's a greater than 50% chance she wouldn't lie in this situation, but I do think in isolated situations there can be a lot of 'grey' around these things, especially when both are drunk.

As much as you want to isolate the incident, dodgy **** happening when people get drunk on a night out is the prevalent culture, and a way out of it is casting enough doubt to create a grey area.

More often than not a woman has to prove she was raped than a man has to prove he didn't rape, and if alcohol is a factor more often than not the culture blames her for not taking better care of herself.

The cultures ****ed.

 

[Zinzan]

Never actually said that was what he does, but it is a common way of operating and those that do it don't even realise, because their perception of whats okay is all ****ed up.

Also, it's entirely possible she could've fallen asleep for a short amount of time in the toilet; I've passed out on the loo only to be woken up a few minutes later by a friend wanting to use it.

Nah.

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/6359/1999/400/IslamWahhh4.jpg

 

[_Ed_]

More often than not a woman has to prove she was raped than a man has to prove he didn't rape, and if alcohol is a factor more often than not the culture blames her for not taking better care of herself.

The cultures ****ed.

Absolutely agree.

As RxGM said, it's pretty awful what (alleged) rape victims have to go through in a trial (and, in high-profile cases like this, in the media as well). They face scrutiny of their private lives on a whole different level to pretty much any other form of assault. It's hardly surprising that such a small percentage of incidents are even reported to begin with.

 

[NZTailender]

Nah.

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/6359/1999/400/IslamWahhh4.jpg

Haha I'm not the one waaaaaaaahing that this forum is too feminist. But whatever man.

 

[Zinzan]

Haha I'm not the one waaaaaaaahing that this forum is too feminist. But whatever man.

No, not the collective forum thankfully, just some of you & you've been doing enough 'waaaaahing' about what a horrible culture we supposedly live in to empty out a tissue factory.

As much as you want to isolate the incident, dodgy **** happening when people get drunk on a night out is the prevalent culture, and a way out of it is casting enough doubt to create a grey area.

More often than not a woman has to prove she was raped than a man has to prove he didn't rape, and if alcohol is a factor more often than not the culture blames her for not taking better care of herself.

The cultures ****ed.

Wait, so wtf is the alternative? That it's guilty until proved innocent? Thank *** western law says otherwise.

 

[hendrix]

More often than not a woman has to prove she was raped than a man has to prove he didn't rape, and if alcohol is a factor more often than not the culture blames her for not taking better care of herself.

The cultures ****ed.

I agree it's awful but two wrongs don't make a right, do they?

We should address the culture and support the victim as much as possible. But I'm not going to go about slandering someone when all we really know is that they had *** after a night of drinking.

 

[Zinzan]

Absolutely agree.

As RxGM said, it's pretty awful what (alleged) rape victims have to go through in a trial (and, in high-profile cases like this, in the media as well). They face scrutiny of their private lives on a whole different level to pretty much any other form of assault. It's hardly surprising that such a small percentage of incidents are even reported to begin with.

This is true, but it's also exactly the same for the men going through the process, especially ones that are wrongly accused or where there was a lot of he-said she-said and grey involved, they & their families go through the same scrutiny. Imagine being Kuggeleijn's folks at the moment.

 

[Zinzan]

I agree it's awful but two wrongs don't make a right, do they?

We should address the culture and support the victim as much as possible. But I'm not going to go about slandering someone when all we really know is that they had *** after a night of drinking.

Innocent until proven guilty, always seemed the most advanced form of justice.

 

[NZTailender]

No, not the collective forum thankfully, just some of you & you've been doing enough 'waaaaahing' about what a horrible culture we supposedly live in to empty out a tissue factory.

Wait, so wtf is the alternative? That it's guilty until proved innocent? Thank *** western law says otherwise.

This is true, but it's also exactly the same for the men going through the process, especially ones that are wrongly accused or where there was a lot of he-said she-said and grey involved, they & their families go through the same scrutiny. Imagine being Kuggeleijn's folks at the moment.

Innocent until proven guilty, always seemed the most advanced form of justice.

Yeah so actually not what I meant and I'm not sure if you're aware of that and just want to prove your point or are just ignorant. I wish things were this black and white.

What questions do women get asked in these situations? https://www.buzzfeed.com/katiejmbak...ad-to-her-ra?utm_term=.utEV6k0vYv#.ur51yOYb8b

The culture is so heavily geared against women, and yet a lot of people still have this perception that women are often making **** up and are out to ruin their name or get back at them. It happens, but it's a fraction. 10% at most.

Innocent until proven guilty. Not-raped until proven raped. There's a difference between innocent and found not guilty.

 

[Mike5181]

Buzzfeed.....

 

[NZTailender]

Buzzfeed.....

Yeah they totally made the letter up as click-bait therefore invalidating it's message.

here's a better 'source' where it says exactly the same thing:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...case-the-victims-letter-in-full-a7067146.html

 

[hendrix]

Yeah so actually not what I meant and I'm not sure if you're aware of that and just want to prove your point or are just ignorant. I wish things were this black and white.

What questions do women get asked in these situations? https://www.buzzfeed.com/katiejmbak...ad-to-her-ra?utm_term=.utEV6k0vYv#.ur51yOYb8b

The culture is so heavily geared against women, and yet a lot of people still have this perception that women are often making **** up and are out to ruin their name or get back at them. It happens, but it's a fraction. 10% at most.

Innocent until proven guilty. Not-raped until proven raped. There's a difference between innocent and found not guilty.

Are you talking to me? When have I said anything that disagrees with this?

I'm also unsure how vilifying someone addresses this culture.

I think you're being unfair.

 

[NZTailender]

Are you talking to me? When have I said anything that disagrees with this?

I'm also unsure how vilifying someone addresses this culture.

I think you're being unfair.

I accidentally hit the add quote on your post too. My apologies.

Who am I vilifying? Kuggleijn? Because I think it's wrong to get it on when one person is smashed to the point of not remembering things and yet you buy them more alcohol anyway? I think that's something that needs addressing from all corners (i.e. people needing this to get laid because Australia and New Zealand doesn't have a proper dating culture but we do have a excessive drinking culture).

 

[Howsie]

Kuggs ain't no rapist, believe that.

 

[Zinzan]

What questions do women get asked in these situations? https://www.buzzfeed.com/katiejmbak...ad-to-her-ra?utm_term=.utEV6k0vYv#.ur51yOYb8b

Lol, buzzfeed is an intellectual source now?

The culture is so heavily geared against women, and yet a lot of people still have this perception that women are often making **** up and are out to ruin their name or get back at them. It happens, but it's a fraction. 10% at most.

Nobody said 'often', nor did they say the woman in this instance was making it up here. This is the bit you can't seem to grasp. What did happen though, is some immediately started going off on a tangent essentially slandering Kuggulein ( and correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this was before we learned of a 2nd allegation).

Your comment in particular, that regardless of the verdict that his character still should be darkened suggests to me that you're basically find him guilty from the get go.

What some of us were saying is let's lay of him until we know more, along with the verdict.

 

[NZTailender]

Lol, buzzfeed is an intellectual source now?

It doesn't change anything that she said and it's been reported on numerous websites. I mean, wow, you poked a hole in what I'm talking about, I linked Buzzfeed, therefore it should be derided.

Nobody said 'often', nor did they say the woman in this instance was making it up here. This is the bit you can't seem to grasp. What did happen though, is some immediately started going off on a tangent essentially slandering Kuggulein ( and correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this was before we learned of a 2nd allegation).

Your comment in particular, that regardless of the verdict that his character still should be darkened suggests to me that you're basically find him guilty from the get go.

I already knew of the other allegation ages ago. And whether or not I think he's guilty of rape, my opinion of him is not high given the circumstances. Newsflash: my opinion of men who do the same thing that Kuggleijn did is not very high. I don't think they're rapists if it's 'consensual' but I hardly find being smashed to the point of not knowing what happened is hardly the best time to be making judgement calls, so it'd be better if people didn't **** when they're blackout drunk. It's a cultural thing that needs to stop, and I recognise 'it takes two to tango' but more often than not, it's the man taking advantage of a more-drunk-than-he woman. I know far, far too many women who themselves, their close friends, or flatmates, have been plied with alcohol and then taken advantage of whilst not being able to stand, form words, or are actually while passed out, then only to have the blame thrown on them for getting that drunk and feeling so shameful and grossed out they don't bother going to the police. Then they hear the same thing happens to a friend of a friend from the same guy, and you realise it's a thing. And it happens a lot more than people think.

What some of us were saying is let's lay of him until we know more, along with the verdict.

I get that, and I agree. If it turns out two women are completely making up bullshit and jellybeans I'll change my opinion. I don't automatically think he's guilty, he may not be, but that doesn't mean I can't think he's a creep in general.