****OFFICIAL**** Lara vs Tendulkar Debate Thread

[Sanz]

Handled rubbish England bowlers, yes. The current lineup? Yet to be seen

Against those same rubbish bowlers, Ponting averaged 48.2, and 42.2 (in 1997 and 2001)

Dravid against those bowlers averaged - 62.3 (in 1996), 100.33 (in 2002).

Besides it's not Dravid's fault that Simon Jones and Harmison were not born when he played England.

 

[Sanz]

Jones, Flintoff have come along massively since then. I doubt anyone could dispute that..

Dravid did play flintoff, hoggard and harmison in India and averaged 62.

 

[parttimer]

Dravid did play flintoff, hoggard and harmison in India and averaged 62.

Yes, in India

 

[Sanz]

Yes, in India

And the point is ?

Btw - I see you have conveniently ignored the last two posts before that about Dravid's average. If Ponting is so good, then why does he average almost half of RD's average against the same attack.

 

[Sanz]

So the next time Dravid goes to play England, Freddie would be past his peak, Jones would be injured as always and that means Dravid will remain unproven. Because there are only two bowlers Freddie and Jones in 2005 could test Dravid and, since India failed to tour England in 2005, Hence DRAVID is CRAP in English conditions.

Kinda same line of argument that Lillee was crap in subcontinent.

 

[roseboy64]

True, he's played more than Lara in the last ten years ( in ODIs atleast). But his superiority isnt just becaue of more matches.
As the records show, the gap between them is 5200 runs in 89 dismissals- thats a stupendous average of almost 59 - which is a huge margin of difference. Not to mention, Tendy also has 22 tons and 20 fifties more...scoring 42 times over 50 and 22 times over 100 in a 90 match span is a fairly huge gap in performance.
Not to mention, at a significantly higher strike rate ( lara's career strike rate is in the high 70s and Tendulkar's in the high 80s. However, you'd find that Lara's strike rate in the early 90s was higher,when he batted with the likes of Haynes, Richardson, Hooper etc. and had very little pressure on his shoulders. Tendulkar's strike rate has been well over 90 since he's taken to opening in ODIs...so in the last ten years, the strike rate difference is close to 20 runs/100 balls.
If the difference between player A and player B in ODIs for ten years is a near 60 runs average, 5000+ runs, scores over 50 in almost 50% of the innings and a 20 runs/100 balls strike rate, thats a pretty categoric superiority.

If you play more games then obviously you'll score more runs. Also being an opener Tendulkar will have more opportunities to make centuries. So the only real difference is really the strike rate and average btu that can be attributed to batting position as well along with batting support and the match situation.

 

[parttimer]

And the point is ?

Btw - I see you have conveniently ignored the last two posts before that about Dravid's average. If Ponting is so good, then why does he average almost half of RD's average against the same attack.

The argument is about who's better against the moving ball, so whether Dravid performed against that attack in India is irrelevant, the ball doesn't move around there.

Averages from series 5 years ago are not relevent. While England's attack may have been similar, facing them in 02 is a very different proposition from now.

 

[C_C]

If you play more games then obviously you'll score more runs. Also being an opener Tendulkar will have more opportunities to make centuries. So the only real difference is really the strike rate and average btu that can be attributed to batting position as well along with batting support and the match situation.
__________________

True...but as i demonstrated, Tendulkar doesnt have more runs proportionate to more matches- he doesnt have like 3600 runs more in 90-odd innings with an average a couple of points more than Lara in that period. He has over 5000 runs at nearly 60 (!!) average more than Lara.... and please check how often batsmen hit 50+ scores in ODI cricket....you'd find that its around 30% of the time ( ie, 1 outta 3 innings)....but in those extra 90 innings, Tendulkar as 42 more scores in excess of 50 - thats a staggering 50% of the time!)
And an opener has more chances to make centuries ?
Pray tell then- how come Viv Richards, Ponting, Lara, Kallis, etc. have a higher frequency of scoring centuries than mostl ODI openers ?

And no, you dont explain a 20 differential in strike rate between position 1 and 3/4 down to 'batting position'.

It is pretty clear that Tendulkar comprehensively outshines Lara ( and anyone else for that matter with the exception of Bevan) in ODIs over the last 10 years or so.

 

[C_C]

The argument is about who's better against the moving ball, so whether Dravid performed against that attack in India is irrelevant, the ball doesn't move around there.

Averages from series 5 years ago are not relevent. While England's attack may have been similar, facing them in 02 is a very different proposition from now.

Oh yes averages from series 5 years ago is very much relevant.
We are talking about players with their careers in perspective here.

Dravid is a far more adaptable batsman than Ponting - that is illustrated by the fact that he averages in the low 60s overseas while Ponting averages in the low 50s overseas.

 

[parttimer]

Oh yes averages from series 5 years ago is very much relevant.
We are talking about players with their careers in perspective here.

Dravid is a far more adaptable batsman than Ponting - that is illustrated by the fact that he averages in the low 60s overseas while Ponting averages in the low 50s overseas.

It does matter, England were not at their peak then. What was Freddie weighing back then, 250lbs?

You've shifted ground to "adaptability", yet we're talking about facing the moving ball here. If you're going to do that i am not going to bother chasing you around

 

[C_C]

It does matter, England were not at their peak then. What was Freddie weighing back then, 250lbs?

You've shifted ground to "adaptability", yet we're talking about facing the moving ball here. If you're going to do that i am not going to bother chasing you around

Err. Last Ashes series is not the first time Ponting played against England in England, was it ? And the last time Dravid went to England, it wasnt his first time either.
You'd find that Dravid has consistently outshined Ponting in England.
As per adaptability- i didnt shift the goalpost, i added another dimension to it.

 

[parttimer]

Err. Last Ashes series is not the first time Ponting played against England in England, was it ? And the last time Dravid went to England, it wasnt his first time either.
You'd find that Dravid has consistently outshined Ponting in England.
As per adaptability- i didnt shift the goalpost, i added another dimension to it.

Lets see how he goes against the 4 prong England attack of today. Odds are in him failing as he has consistently done so against quality attacks on seaming pitches as he has before in SA and Australia - 99 in Aus and SA, 2001 SA, plus against Pak when the two WW's were still going round

 

[C_C]

Lets see how he goes against the 4 prong England attack of today. Odds are in him failing as he has consistently done so against quality attacks on seaming pitches as he has before in SA and Australia - 99 in Aus and SA, 2001 SA, plus against Pak when the two WW's were still going round

You convininetly forgot that he was a superb success in South Africa in 1996 where he faced Donald,Pollock and Klusener, acquiting himself with distinction. And the RSA attack of 2001 was hardly in the bracket of Australia, Pakistan, West Indies or the Saffie attack he faced in 96- it only had Pollock in it(who had a monster series).

Not to mention, that he was superb in West Indies in 1996 against the collective might of Ambrose, Walsh and Bishop.

And last but not the least, Dravid has never played Wasim and Waqar on seaming pitches. But then again, to those two that didnt matter.

 

[Sanz]

Lets see how he goes against the 4 prong England attack of today. Odds are in him failing as he has consistently done so against quality attacks on seaming pitches as he has before in SA and Australia - 99 in Aus and SA, 2001 SA, plus against Pak when the two WW's were still going round

I think you should watch cricket more closely, in 1999 tour of Australia, it was Warne that gave him more trouble than any other seamer. And in SA Dravid averaged pretty well when Donald was @ his peak.

 

[parttimer]

You convininetly forgot that he was a superb success in South Africa in 1996 where he faced Donald,Pollock and Klusener, acquiting himself with distinction. And the RSA attack of 2001 was hardly in the bracket of Australia, Pakistan, West Indies or the Saffie attack he faced in 96- it only had Pollock in it(who had a monster series).

Not to mention, that he was superb in West Indies in 1996 against the collective might of Ambrose, Walsh and Bishop.

And last but not the least, Dravid has never played Wasim and Waqar on seaming pitches. But then again, to those two that didnt matter.

He did have a good match at the Wanderers in 96, but didn't do much in the other four innings in that series. Hardly the mark of consistency. BTW, match was drawn (probably bcos Dravid 150 came at a Gillespie-esque SR of 30)

1996 Series against WI - Out of 5 tests, 4 draws and 1 win. Must have been a nightmarish conditions for batsmen in that series

 

[Sanz]

1996 Series against WI - Out of 5 tests, 4 draws and 1 win. Must have been a nightmarish conditions for batsmen in that series

That's true man Deano scored double century @ Chennai in 1987, Must have meant **** for everyone because all the three tests ended up draw and KapilDev went wicketless in the entire series only time in his career.

Do you even watch cricket or all your opinion is formed from Howstat.au.

 

[C_C]

He did have a good match at the Wanderers in 96, but didn't do much in the other four innings in that series. Hardly the mark of consistency. BTW, match was drawn (probably bcos Dravid 150 came at a Gillespie-esque SR of 30)

1996 Series against WI - Out of 5 tests, 4 draws and 1 win. Must have been a nightmarish conditions for batsmen in that series

Actually, yes it was pretty nightmaring for batsmen in most of those tests in the 96 tour of West Indies.
Most of the matches were drawn because of rain - they went during the caribbean wet season i think and batting was pretty hard on some of the days.

And against South Africa- we are talking about battin in the mid 90s. You forget that pitches were significantly harder to bat on in those days and a 55 average in a series was considered an excellent result. Add to the mix that it was only his fourth series and barely a year into his debut, in a batting lineup revolving around Tendulkar alone, it was a pretty superb result for Dravid.

 

[Sanz]

He did have a good match at the Wanderers in 96, but didn't do much in the other four innings in that series. Hardly the mark of consistency. BTW, match was drawn (probably bcos Dravid 150 came at a Gillespie-esque SR of 30)

Wasn't he not out in one inning and then was asked to open in one inning and in one inning he was out to Paul Adams ? Let me guesws Paul Adams was the greatest Seamer to come out of Africa, isn't he ? Whether his 150 came @ SR of 30 or 10 doesn't really matter, what matters is that he saved the game for India.

Again in 2001 he was asked to open the innings in the first test and he failed. In the second test he did well and it was because of his performance that the test ended in draw.

 

[parttimer]

That's true man Deano scored double century @ Chennai in 1987, Must have meant **** for everyone because all the three tests ended up draw and KapilDev went wicketless in the entire series only time in his career.

Do you even watch cricket or all your opinion is formed from Howstat.au.

I think he's nowhere near as good as made out to be, and still has to prove he can handle strong attacks on wickets that seam. To say he's better than Ponting on such wickets is pure fantasy. There are too many wholes in his resume ie. consistent poor results overall V SA and Aus when things haven't been easy batting wise

 

[Dasa]

I think he's nowhere near as good as made out to be, and still has to prove he can handle strong attacks on wickets that seam. To say he's better than Ponting on such wickets is pure fantasy. There are too many wholes in his resume ie. consistent poor results overall V SA and Aus when things haven't been easy batting wise

...but if you're going to use that as a mark against Dravid, why not use the same against Ponting? Consistently been very very poor in India, hasn't been able to score much against England, or score a great deal in seaming conditions.

Anyway, I think it's your bias showing through here...Dravid has obviously been absolutely brilliant on seamers if you've actually watched him play. But then again, you'd probably think Hodge is a better batsman than Dravid....