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*Official* Indian Domestic Season 2004/2005
- Thread starter NikhilN
- Start date
Indulkar *is* the young batsman they need to give the first chance to, however.
And his average is actually not that bad - at this moment his career fc average
is 53.
Indulkar is very young, and quite talented - they saw him as a prospect from
his younger days, he was seen as the best U16 and U19 Bombay prospect of
his time. But he didnt produce as much as he should have (Bombay has very
high standards in this regard - after Gavaskar and Sachin etc, when a kid is
a good prospect and 16-17 years old, he is expected to make double tons at
school level quite regularly to be considered to have lived up to it - and few have
done that lately. Vinayak Mane was similar - talented and seen as a real
prospect, but didnt produce the 200s at U16 etc. He finally fixed it at age 19,
got into the Ranji side, and has done ok).
Indulkar showed a few flashes against good opposition - last year in the Buchi
Babu's he got a century against what was effectively a Hyderabad XI for
example. He was given 3/4 limited overs matches for Bombay and looked ok,
leading Bombay to a win with 70-odd in one of them. He finally got his
fc debut only this season.
The guy is only 20 years old - he is pretty young, and its hard to do well at
the start of a career. At age 20 he was thrown into the deep end - at #3
against Mcgrath and Lee! He didnt do much, but did stick around 65 balls in
making 13 at least.
His average tells you nothing right now - the sample size is too small, only 7
innings played. But he managed a fifty early in the Ranji season, and in his
4th fc match he got a century last week against Andhra (a very good innings,
from 46/2 he scored a very strokeful century, as Bombay added 85 runs in
the first hour after lunch on the first day with Indulkar dominating). He eventually
got 131 (after retiring hurt at 111* due to dehydration, having to be taken to
hospital and going on an IV). In this current match against Bengal he got 69,
his 2nd fifty in 7 innings (to go along with 1 century) and partnered Jaffer as
Bombay got to 254/1 after the first days play.
It is very early in Indulkar's career, and he is only 20. So far the start has been
pretty solid, he has been thrust into the #3 spot and has not let the team down
yet. He may well start failing more from here on out (the opposition gets
more difficult now, Delhi, Karnataka etc to come) - but he has shown enough
early in his career at a young age to earn a longish trial in the side, I should
think. (Especially as he was well regarded coming into the side, more so
than Bhavin Thakkar was for instance. Thakkar was a fine age-group player
for Bombay too, and did decently at the Ranjis - but he was mostly very
gritty, and his technique never was very well-liked by higher ups, he was
sort of extra square-on in stance etc).
Mota is a decent enough player and has pretensions as an allrounder - he did
a solid enough job in the one game he got for Bombay (with the ball, mostly,
not much of a chance with the bat). But I dont know if he is earmarked for
very high levels to start with - and there isnt much room for him in the side
right now, except as a fill-in. The first-choice for allrounder is probably still
going to be Robin Morris (who I presume is injured). Mota has no chance of
forcing his way into the first XI as a pure paceman - though he got a chance
now because of several injuries too (Salvi and Munaf are both still injured).
If both Powar and Bahutule are available (not to mention Agarkar), Bombay
doesnt really need another allrounder - theyd much rather have a specialist
bowler instead (thus if Bahutule and Powar are around, plus Kulkarni, and
there are 2 pacemen to be picked, the 2 will be chosen from Shinde/Salvi/
Munaf, not Mota IMHO). Even for seam-allrounder, Iam actually surprised
Mota was chosen over Abhishek Nair - maybe he is injured too, dont know.
Also the above is true for the "seamer-allrounder" spot, for fc cricket. If there
is a just an allrounder needed (ie a spin track, and an allrounder shortage),
there are a few other allrounders around - Omkar Khanvilkar and Harshad
Rawle are both off-spinning-allrounders in Bombay, for example (and
Khanvilkar played for Bombay last year, doing quite well).
Khaleel doesnt open for Hyderabad actually - comes in #7 or so usually, and
is quite a good batsman. Rathore and Deshpande are slightly different
cases, both are openers by profession (Rathore was just a pure opener,
was a keeper only in his schooldays - he took up keeping again only after
age 30, when he moved to HP from Punjab, but he stayed opener because
he had always been that). Dasgupta has also opened a fair bit, but he
is batting #3 for Bengal nowadays (this week Arindam Das and Nikhil
Haldipur opened).
c8w
Pawar has to be Baroda's #1 spinner, yes - but so far he has been. He has been
bowling mostly on pitches that favour pace (or are flat, as in the first game), but
he has been Baroda's hero twice now - all 6 points they have are heavily due
to him. In this match, for instance, he had 7 wickets in the game (for about 60-odd
runs, it being a big pace track where spinners didnt bowl much) including a
hat-trick. And then led Baroda to a quite amazing win with the bat - with scores
of 170 allout, 93 allout, 178 allout and Baroda 130/5 (effectively 130/6 with the
injured Nayan Mongia unable to bat), Pawar came in and made 95* as Baroda
reached 279 without losing another wicket!
Frankly I dont think either of the Pathan's were *that* great as batsmen even
as juniors - they were decent, allrounder types, but really not good enough to
be "specialist batsman" even at U19 agegroup level. And while Irfan has great
potential as a batsman (or so we hope), his batting IMHO so far has been
over-rated quite a bit - at U19 level he was a decent batsman, a useful #7 to
have in a side (compare this with, say, Ajit Agarkar - who at U19 level was a
#5 and #6 batsman for India U19, scored centuries for India U19 etc, a far
better age-group batsman than Irfan ever was).
Remember, Irfan Pathan played 31 first-class games in his career, outside of
test cricket - most of these for Baroda in the Ranjis (also a few for India-A
etc). In these 31 matches, he crossed fifty exactly *once*! He has actually
batted with greater effort and maturity for India than he did for Baroda, and
in 39 matches (including tests) he has never made an fc century yet. Yes, he
has the raw tools and can improve with the bat - but he isnt that good with
the bat yet, IMHO.
The Baroda side needs to bat better to have a chance, no question. But Iam
not convinced they can rely on the Pathan brothers for the *batting* - if they
do, I think they'll lose. They need their *batsmen* to come thru - and I think
in that respect the innings by Rishikesh Parab today was very useful. They
need to have Kiran Powar in the side again and have him hit form - and they
might yet be ok.
Iam not convinced his brother is that good a batsman yet anyway - and Irfan
can improve, and should, but he really didnt when he had the chance (he
played nearly 3 years of fc cricket before playing for India). As for Joginder
Sharma, we'll see - Joginder was a decent U19 cricketer too, but really we
dont know how good a batsman he is so far at all. He has played exclusively
Second Division cricket, so his stats really tell us very very little IMHO - this
is a very weak league, really (young Yashpal Singh of Services, for example,
has a career Ranji average of over 60 - a good 20 runs per innings better than
people like Kaif and Yuvraj! But he gets the chance to rattle up runs in the
Second Division, so it doesnt mean that much in some ways. Joginder
Sharma's stats are somewhat similarly inflated, probably). Irfan needs to
makea committment to improve his batting, but on his own - he just needs
to work at it etc. Iam not sure he should be looking towards Joginder
or Yusuf for any "inspiration" per se (heck, if anything, Agarkar has been
consistently scoring runs for the past year - far more than either of those
guys :-)
c8w
Personally I dont think Irfan Pathan is as good as *any* of the Baroda top-6, leaveArjun said:
alone all of them :-) Note, he played with them for 3 years, and did worse than
any of them with the bat, by quite a big margin at that. Not by chance, either.
Parab doesnt move his feet much, but is an opener who has done well at the
Ranji level for quite a while - and even played for India-A with some success.
Williams is now old, but he was an India player a few years ago - even played
1 "unofficial" test for India in RSA. Martin is stodgy, but really a pretty good
batsman, especially technically - he has failed the last couple of matches, but
really the pitches have been very helpful to seamers (I dont think Irfan would
have done anything with the bat on either pitch, myself - with the ball, OTOH,
he would have been very very good. With Irfan and Zaheer on these kinds
of pitches, Baroda would have won both matches IMHO).
Kiran Powar is actually a very very good batsman - just has not played for
Baroda before. He has played First Division Cricket for 3 years now and has
averaged over 50 in that time - few players manage that, even many of our
"India XI players" have not (Rohan Gavaskar, Hemang Badani, Mohd Kaif,
Yuvraj Singh, all of them havent managed those sorts of stats in First
Division Ranjis in the last 3 years). Kiran Powar was also, many years ago,
the *captain* of India U19 and #3 batsman - remember, Irfan could make no
higher than #7 in the India U19 lineup of *his* day.
Baroda also has a few young guys who are talented - but need a long run to
do well (which they have not been able to give them yet). Rishikesh Parab
proved his worth in the 2nd innings here, in the company of Pawar he made
93* to lead Baroda to a victory and probably save their season (which would
have basically been over with a loss). Rakesh Solanki is very talented as
well - he was India U19's #3 batsman in the U19 World Cup last year, but
he too hasnt gotten an extended run for Baroda so far, he probably will
soon.
Baroda has a bit of talent in their batting lineup, it just hasnt really come
thru yet - and they seem to struggle against better attacks or on pitches
that help bowling. They probably need 2 or 3 really good innings each, to
get some confidence before the knockouts of the Ranjis this year (if they
make the knockouts that is - they very probably may not).
c8w
Its veyr early, and with 4 points for a victory even 1 win changes everything for theArjun said:
minnows - as has happened the last 3 years. Its too early to say anything, in
that respect.
However, at the moment, I think MP is not in bad shape at all really. They have
4 points from 4 matches right now - they have taken first-innings points from
both Bombay *and* Delhi, which is a pretty damn good achievement. They
almost got 4 points from Delhi, almost won the match outright last evening
but for bad light (if they had, they would have been tied for 3rd in the group
and in with a pretty decent chance of making the knockouts!) Theyve had
a decent season so far - but will rue not beating Delhi outright (which would have
made them secure from relegation for sure IMHO). The team that is probably
the least secure in this group might still be Andhra IMHO - though now Bengal
is also stuck on only 4 points with back-to-back poor efforts. And Railways
have badly underperformed as well, and cant have it continue.
In the other group, Maharasthra looks poor so far - which is sad, because they
are IMHO far better than they have shown to date. They have really struggled
with the bat on helpful pitches - they are usually a fantastic batting side, but
are used to flatter tracks. It will be interesting to see if they can improve
when they get home. Assam is the team that I had picked to struggle most
in this group - they lost Kiran Powar, who was their best batsman for 2
years now, and that has hurt their batting badly. But Satish batted brilliantly
in this match so it may not be so bad after all for them.
As for promotion - its early again, and we'll find out. Haryana has always done
well early and faded, the last couple of seasons, but the opposition looks
much weaker this season (last year they had to contend with MP and
Maharashtra, who both ended up beating them). Vidhabha - we'll see.
Vidarbha ended up losing outright to Goa yesterday - they had won their
first 2 matches at home, but lost outright in their first game away from
home, and so are stuck on 4 points at the moment. The team that seems
to have really started to play well is Himachal Pradesh IMHO - they have
a very good shot at promotion at this rate. And I still think Orissa can
probably get its act together (though it hasnt yet).
c8w
Arjun
Cricketer Of The Year
RE: PATHAN'S ROLE IN THE BATTING LINEUP-
Pathan may not have too many runs to his credit and a very sub-par average, but when he can hit big shots against Shane Warne, Muttiah Muralitharan, Shoaib Akhtar and Brett Lee, he definitely has potential, especially as a six-hitter. However, lack of application, encouragement and experience have not helped him at all. Boycott is one who has criticised many Indian batsmen (particularly Agarkar, repeatedly) for lack of technique, but has praised Pathan a lot. He said that he has the talent, the technique and the temperament. He could become a bowling all-rounder, with one skill stronger than the other. However, he has to want to score runs to get runs.
He had played for 3 years without getting more than a solitary half-century, coming in at a very low position in the batting order. He was never promoted as an acive part of the batting order, but just as a mere tailender. If he was encouraged to go for big shots and big scores, his average would be three times as much as it is now. Before he walks in to bat, he should be given clear orders to go for the big shots. This worked in Kenya with MS Dhoni, whose technique irked Boycott when he was at the NCA. Dhoni was once just another wicketkeeper in the plate league. Since the series, he is considered as a genuine all-rounder by the selectors.
To say he's not as good as anyone from the Baroda top-6 is unfair, given he's young, has the hitting power, can be a major threat when on song and cannot be far worse than Rakesh Solanki and Gaikwad. If they keep getting skittled out for less than hundred runs, they'll need all the help they can get, from anyone- be it Pathan, Rajesh Pawar, Nayan Mongia or Rakesh Patel.
Moreover, the specialist batsmen in the Baroda Ranji side are defensive, and that restricts the run-scoring potions. Irfan, on the other hand, is an aggressive batsman, who can keep the momentum going. He can hit clean sixes that go into the stands- the Indian frontline batsmen barely clear the ropes. In that respect, he is better than the rest of the Baroda side. If he can convert those flashy 20's and 30's to big scores of over 50 and get that odd century, he can add attacking firepower to an otherwise defensive batting side. He shouldn't bat like them, but rather, bat differently. He should bat to his strength, which is in big shots.
He has the potential and he can improve, but international cricket is not the right place for it. That improvement should take place in domestic/A-team cricket, which can only happen with a regular place in the top-6. That may be a risky experiment, but given enough cover (a batting lineup of the Parabs, Williams, Martin and KR Powar can do little wrong), it's not a bad idea. The coach and captain play a very important role here. He has the raw material, so it's worth the risk.
No side should depend on just one player if they have to win consistently. The Indians depended too much on Sachin, the Lankans on Murali and the Kiwis on one strike bowler or top order batsman. All of them have to score runs- from SS Parab to Rakesh Patel. However, when Irfan Pathan realises his batting potential, he can be quite a handful, hitting sixes and fours regularly. Indian cricket needs more big-hitting batsmen. That way, the bowlers will be better adapted to facing them in international cricket.
Comparisons with Parthiv Patel, Ajit Agarkar and Rakesh Patel may be drawn. Parthiv was pushed into being an active part of the batting lineup, or he would lose his place the way Ratra did- Pathan needs that kind of push. Ajit Agarkar is obviously lucky to score so many runs, just as Ajay Ratra is- both have a lot of technical flaws in their batting, and all three lack hitting power. If a mere tailender like Rakesh Patel can go for 50's (he has 6) so often, why not Irfan? The man needs a kick up the usual place if he gets out for a sub-40 score.
Pathan may not have too many runs to his credit and a very sub-par average, but when he can hit big shots against Shane Warne, Muttiah Muralitharan, Shoaib Akhtar and Brett Lee, he definitely has potential, especially as a six-hitter. However, lack of application, encouragement and experience have not helped him at all. Boycott is one who has criticised many Indian batsmen (particularly Agarkar, repeatedly) for lack of technique, but has praised Pathan a lot. He said that he has the talent, the technique and the temperament. He could become a bowling all-rounder, with one skill stronger than the other. However, he has to want to score runs to get runs.
He had played for 3 years without getting more than a solitary half-century, coming in at a very low position in the batting order. He was never promoted as an acive part of the batting order, but just as a mere tailender. If he was encouraged to go for big shots and big scores, his average would be three times as much as it is now. Before he walks in to bat, he should be given clear orders to go for the big shots. This worked in Kenya with MS Dhoni, whose technique irked Boycott when he was at the NCA. Dhoni was once just another wicketkeeper in the plate league. Since the series, he is considered as a genuine all-rounder by the selectors.
To say he's not as good as anyone from the Baroda top-6 is unfair, given he's young, has the hitting power, can be a major threat when on song and cannot be far worse than Rakesh Solanki and Gaikwad. If they keep getting skittled out for less than hundred runs, they'll need all the help they can get, from anyone- be it Pathan, Rajesh Pawar, Nayan Mongia or Rakesh Patel.
Moreover, the specialist batsmen in the Baroda Ranji side are defensive, and that restricts the run-scoring potions. Irfan, on the other hand, is an aggressive batsman, who can keep the momentum going. He can hit clean sixes that go into the stands- the Indian frontline batsmen barely clear the ropes. In that respect, he is better than the rest of the Baroda side. If he can convert those flashy 20's and 30's to big scores of over 50 and get that odd century, he can add attacking firepower to an otherwise defensive batting side. He shouldn't bat like them, but rather, bat differently. He should bat to his strength, which is in big shots.
He has the potential and he can improve, but international cricket is not the right place for it. That improvement should take place in domestic/A-team cricket, which can only happen with a regular place in the top-6. That may be a risky experiment, but given enough cover (a batting lineup of the Parabs, Williams, Martin and KR Powar can do little wrong), it's not a bad idea. The coach and captain play a very important role here. He has the raw material, so it's worth the risk.
No side should depend on just one player if they have to win consistently. The Indians depended too much on Sachin, the Lankans on Murali and the Kiwis on one strike bowler or top order batsman. All of them have to score runs- from SS Parab to Rakesh Patel. However, when Irfan Pathan realises his batting potential, he can be quite a handful, hitting sixes and fours regularly. Indian cricket needs more big-hitting batsmen. That way, the bowlers will be better adapted to facing them in international cricket.
Comparisons with Parthiv Patel, Ajit Agarkar and Rakesh Patel may be drawn. Parthiv was pushed into being an active part of the batting lineup, or he would lose his place the way Ratra did- Pathan needs that kind of push. Ajit Agarkar is obviously lucky to score so many runs, just as Ajay Ratra is- both have a lot of technical flaws in their batting, and all three lack hitting power. If a mere tailender like Rakesh Patel can go for 50's (he has 6) so often, why not Irfan? The man needs a kick up the usual place if he gets out for a sub-40 score.
Arjun
Cricketer Of The Year
RE: JOGINDER SHARMA'S PERFORMANCE-
He is young, he has the talent and is in form. He may have got runs and wickets against weak sides, but he has got impressive batting and bowling stats, which are very rare. In just 18 matches, he has 76 wickets, which is not too bad, and is backed up with 2 centuries and 5 half-centuries. Moreover, being the strike bowler, he has taken it upon himself to score lots of runs for his side, which is why they are in such good form- the team has balance. He should not be a role-model for Irfan, but for the role he plays in the Haryana side.
Being from Haryana, he is a tall man and also very muscular. Knowing their dieting habits, they may eat four times as much as an average UP player, which explains their build. That can definitely help in hitting big shots and extracting bounce.
Picking him for the Indian side is premature (not so much as picking RP Singh, who has played one-third as many matches as Sharma has), but he should be watched for a full season. He should make a North Zone team as a big-hitting all-rounder who opens the bowling and play to his role. A position in the Indian A-team should not be far. There are times when talent should be identified and rewarded, even if there isn't much experience.
He is young, he has the talent and is in form. He may have got runs and wickets against weak sides, but he has got impressive batting and bowling stats, which are very rare. In just 18 matches, he has 76 wickets, which is not too bad, and is backed up with 2 centuries and 5 half-centuries. Moreover, being the strike bowler, he has taken it upon himself to score lots of runs for his side, which is why they are in such good form- the team has balance. He should not be a role-model for Irfan, but for the role he plays in the Haryana side.
Being from Haryana, he is a tall man and also very muscular. Knowing their dieting habits, they may eat four times as much as an average UP player, which explains their build. That can definitely help in hitting big shots and extracting bounce.
Picking him for the Indian side is premature (not so much as picking RP Singh, who has played one-third as many matches as Sharma has), but he should be watched for a full season. He should make a North Zone team as a big-hitting all-rounder who opens the bowling and play to his role. A position in the Indian A-team should not be far. There are times when talent should be identified and rewarded, even if there isn't much experience.
But HOW MANY batsmen in EITHER LEAGUE have such a high average? Here, an average of 40 is standard stuff ,lower 50's is good, higher 50's is very good, but 60's is exceptional.c8w said:
Khaleel opened for South Zone against England A and was predictably out for not too many. Dasgupta bats in the top 6, but that's obviously not his main skill, and fans are familiar with his wicketkeeping abilities, if any. Frankly, the wicketkeeper does not have to have exceptional batting skills- if he's a hitter, that should suffice, since he has his keeping to fall back on. He's one of a kind in a playing XI, but you have six batsmen, or five bowlers, so they should be more serious about their bowling/batting.
SJS
Hall of Fame Member
That alone wont do. People wont watch televisipon also, unless the top stars participate. This is the biggest problem in India. No one kows when did Kumble last bowl to Tendulkar in a first class game.Deja moo said:
It would be fascinating to see, Harbhajan bowl to Dravid, Laxman and Ganguly.
The new bowlers need to be tested against the best batsmen and the likes of Venugopal, Sriram, Dhoni and Rayudu need to be tested against the best bowlers.
If people see a new bowler getting the better of the likes of Sachin and Dravid, that guy is assured of a fan following otherwise they are and will remain anonymous for all except the most ardent students of the game and these are in short supply.
Joginder is a different case from RP Singh- he has been playing for 3 seasons in
Ranjis now.I think he ight well be a decent bowler, but I really wonder if his
batting will translate at the higher level. It is much easier to make runs against
weaker bowlers after all (his 2 centuries were against Goa and Tripura, who are
both quite weak - Tripura is really tailor-made for run-scoring, and have been for
a while).
He *has* played Duleep Trophy for North Zone etc, BTW - and also for Rest of
India this year against Bombay. His "next level" batting so far has been:
vs Central Zone: 4 & 11*
vs West Zone : 33 & 5
vs East Zone : 0 & 25
vs Bombay : 16 & 0
It isnt much of a sample size, obviously - but so far at least he hasnt had a
really good innings at the next level. I would much rather he be given a few
matches for India-A rather than be thrown into the Indian ODI side as he has
been lately.
Oh, you'd be surprised. Playing against weak opposition, there *are* a few players
capable of running up big scores in India.
The last 2 years, Maharashtra was in Second Division (where Yashpal Singh still
is). In 2002/03, Hrishishikesh Kanitkar averaged 81.55. The next year (ie last
year) he averaged 113.40. (Also for Maharashtra, Abhijit Kale averaged 85 in
02/03, but was banned last year. Dhiraj Jadhav played last year, and averaged
99.50 for Maharashtra).
For Madhya Pradesh, Devendra Bundela averaged only 55.00 in 2002/03. To
make up for that, last year he averaged 108.80 :-)
These are obviously inflated numbers. An example would be Karnataka wicketkeeper
Thilak Naidu - who averaged 106.00 in 2002/03 playing in the Second Division (and
was considered an India contender as a result). Unfortunately for him Karnataka
got promoted that year to First Division, and last year in First Division Thilak
Naidu averaged 20.11, and dropped out of India contention :-)
Yashpal Singh might be good - but his numbers are inflated a lot by playing
in Second Division. The difference is that he has played basically only in
second divisino, and not up at First Division level at all, so his numbers dont
go down (Kanitkar has averaged over 90 in the Second Division the last 2
years, much more than Yashpal Singh - but Kanitkar's average will drop a
fair bit this season, because he is playing in First Division now).
A good example here might be Mandar Phadke - who I follow. He is a Bombayite,
lefty batsman, good solid bat. Made it to the Bombay side a few years ago, which
is quite an achievement because the batting strength in Bombay was very
good in the late 1990s. But he didnt become a regular for Bombay - he played
only 4 matches for Bombay, made one good century, but overall averaged only
35 or so I think, and Bombay had better batsmen so he was sidelined. He plays
club and office cricketin Bombay, at a very high level, and does very well still.
Three years ago he moved teams, and started playing Ranji Trophy cricket
for Goa (he is now Goa captain) in Second Division, and has now played
9 matches for Goa. (Remember, Phadke played for Bombay last in 1998,
then played *no* first-class cricket for 4 years, before finally deciding he
wanted to play some more before he retired, for Goa, in 2002).
Today his career first-class record is as follows:
Mandar Phadke: 13 matches, 1095 runs, 6 centuries, 3 fifties, average 64.41
This is because in two-and-a-half years for Goa, in 9 matches, he has made
5 centuries and averaged almost 80 in Second Division overall. Iam very happy
for him, he is a terrific player and it is nice to see him finally get a deserved
chance in first-class cricket and do so well - but that doesnt mean one should
just look at the stats, see he is averaging almost 65, and say "oh, he should
be given a chance for India" as a result. The lower-level play in Second Division
is a fact, and should not be discounted so easily IMHO.
Khaleel did open for SZ against England-A, but I thought that was only because
the actual opener was injured or something? He isnt an opener by profession,
and doesnt do it regularly. Dasgupta has, in the past - and Dasgupta *does*
have decent batting capapbilities, really, even has a couple of good test
knocks for India. Not a good gloveman IMHO, and not worthy of an India
spot, but a decent enough Ranji-level batsman (except that his form has gone
to hell over the last 2 years with the bat - supposedly he has been working hard
to become better with the gloves, and that seems to have ruined his batting).
As for kee-er-batsmen - if they can bat, there is nothign like it. But you cant
force the issue. Bombay had Sameer Dighe for a long time - after about 8
years of first-class cricket he was still averaging about 45 for a career with
the bat, with almost a dozen centuries. He was a genuine batsman, and
good enough for it - he often even opened for Bombay when team-balance
called for it (and even made a century in a Ranji Trophy final as an opener
for Bombay). He then faded a little, his average dropped to about 40, and
only *then* did he get picked to play for India :-) His best days came for
Bombay earlier than that. But if you can find a wicketkeeper who can
bat that well, he is useful in *any* side - you dont need the wicketkeeper
to be just a hitter at all, IMHO.
c8w
I dont think there is anyone who doesnt *want* to score runs, per se :-) Its a
question of ability and temperament in the end. Boycott has criticized a lot
of people in the past too, and some of them have come on very strongly
(two examples would be Flintoff and Yuvraj Singh - who was absolutely
ripped by Boycott while playing in RSA a year before the World Cup, Boycott
said he didnt even think you could call Yuvraj a talented player, leave alone
a good batsman. And yet a year later Yuvraj was starring in the World Cup
in the same country.Anyway :-)
Pathan has a lot of batting potential, sure - but that IMHO is because he has
some decent shots, but also more importantly IMHO his defense doesnt
seem to have *that* many holes in it. But temperament is the most important
thing in batting - you can have everything, but you have to have the concentration
to stay there for long periods. Irfan shows those signs, but he should have done
more in his batting chances so far in first-class cricket, more than he has
(IMHO the same is also true of Agarkar - I think he has tremendous batting
talent, and very nice shots. But he has too often thrown his innings away
rather than go on - that seems to be changnig only in the last 12-14 months
I think).
Thats because, by all accounts, Dhoni doesnt have a copy-book technique - and
Boycott is very much a copy-book type guy. OTOH Dhoni has *always* had
great strokeplaying ability, it isnt exactly new - and he actually has done
well even before he wen tto Kenya (that is actually why he went to Kenya
after all, he was chosen for India-A because he had *performed* in
domestics). And his innings were always based on lots of fours, lots of
strokeplay - a year or two ago he was playing this Under-25 match against
Tamil Nadu Under-25. It was a 4-day game, and he opened the innings
on the first morning. And he made 66 in 64 balls. Which might seem
completely unremarkable - until you see that he had, according to the
stats, *15 fours and 1 six*! That is, he had 66 runs in fours and sixes! So
he basically played 48 dot balls, hit 15 fours and 1 six, and that was his
total scoring! But, as you can see, even in those days he was quite a
strokeplayer.
We'll find out in time - I think both Gaekwad and Solanki will end up being far
better batsmen than Pathan. Solanki in particular is very talented, he batted
at #3 for India U19 in the U19 World Cup only last year, and was the top batsman
in Baroda U19s side. Pathan was never that, ever - not even in his U19 days.
He was only a very good bowler who batted very usefully - never good enough to
be a specialist batsman.
Parthiv Patel was a *terrific* junior batsman - he was an opener for Gujarat U16,
Gujarat U19 and India U19. He was an opener for India U19 when he was only
17 years old. He is technically and stroke-wise far superior to Irfan Pathan as
a pure batsman IMHO - and he did just fine at international level with the bat
(his problem came with the gloves). Ratra, I actually didnt think was that
good with the bat at all - and he only had 1 good innings internationally anyway,
all the rest were basically failures.
Also, I disagree totally that Agarkar has been lucky to get runs - I think he has
a lot of talent with the bat, and has actually not lived up to it. He has shown
only glimpes of it (in 2 very quick fifties in ODI cricket, in a very good test
century at Lord's etc) - but he has not shown it with the consistency he
should have. But he plays proper cricketing strokes, not slogs - if he chose
them better he would make even more runs IMHO.
As for "hitting ability" - Parthiv isnt a hitter, its true, he is a proper batsman
who needs to bat for a long time to get runs. But he is a pretty good strokeplyaer
and can hit quite a few fours, and does.
As for hitting ability in Pathan and Agarkar - note that Pathan has batted 20
times in ODI cricket now, for example. In those 20 innings, he has hit a
total of 4 sixes (I dont have the figures for test cricket). If you look at the
last 21 times Agarkar has batted in ODI cricket (OK, Iam cheating and
saying 21 instead of 20 :-)... in those last 21 times Agarkar has batted,
he has hit 11 sixes! (If you make it 20 innings, its only 9 sixes - but still
more than twice as many as Pathan has hit).
Agarkar doesnt actually lack hitting ability much at all, especially in ODI
cricket (his career strike-rate for batting in ODIs is 87.5 runs per hundred
balls - a bit higher than Pathan's career strike-rate of 74.9 runs per hundred
balls). I take it you never watched Agarkar in that one innings of his, when
he made the fastest fifty by an Indian in ODI cricket - the 67 off 25 balls
against Zimbabwe a few years ago, when he hit 4 sixes in that single
innings (as many sixes as Pathan has hit in his ODI career to date)?
I mean, in the last 2 ODIs that Agarkar has batted in (against England
and Pakistan), he has hit a combined 3 sixes!
c8w
Arjun
Cricketer Of The Year
Pathan is just plain lazy. He has to want to score runs, and score runs in big shots. He has to convert starts into big scores. That message should be out. About all those missed chances in domestic cricket, he was just 17 at that time. He has age and strong batting basics on his side and can definitely improve, but he needs that push to do so. Think about Flintoff- when he made his debut four years ageo, he was a failure. Yet, the ECB persisted with him longer, and he still continued to fail, and he bacame a laughing stock of most journalists and fans. However, he put in enough effort to come up with aa monumental dispay of match-winning all-round ability to prove his critics wrong. Or Jacob Oram, a big-hitting batsman in NZ- the then Chairman of Selectors and former NZ all-rounder Sir Richard Hadlee told him to practise his bowling to make a NZ side, which he did, and he now plays as their strike bowler. Scott Styris was a very average neither-here-nor-there player till WI2002, when he batted well and bowled well enough to get a 50 and 5 wickets in the same match. It's just a question of application and nothing more. He was then dropped by Hadlee and told to get more runs and wickets, which he did. Maybe the Indian selection committee, or Indian domestic cricket in general, needs more Hadlees.
At present, Gaikwad and Solanki are not top stuff, and given their averages, can't be far better. As for the Indian U-19's, they have always had one problem too many as a batting side- there is just one batsman who contributes, while the others get out cheaply. The only U-19's who have scored enough runs that mean anything are Shikhar Dhawan and Robin Uthappa. Pathan's batting is only 'useful', but application is the key word that converts 'useful' into match-winning. There have to be orders from the team management to score the runs quickly when he comes out to bat.
Parthiv Patel is no match-winner with the bat. He can hang around and play some good-looking strokes, but he lacks hitting power. Not to mention slow running between wickets. Ratra is not a top-order batsman but a tailender who sticks around and builds partnerships. Undue pressure was applied when he was asked to play many a big innings.
He slogs quite often, to hit fours. He's never as convincing a batsman when he attacks- a lot of labour is put into the pull shots and sweeps, and he's no good at the hook either. His biggest weakness is his tendency to scoop several balls from the off-side, over third-man or cover, and he jabs at rising deliveries. Every weakness of Agarkar's batting is shown in that tour of Australia in 2000-01. Save that century at Lords, he has done nothing significant, as his average suggests. Even that century came against weaker elements of a sleeping English attack, but he scored just two against the same attack when it was active.
Pathan hardly ever comes out to bat, and even if he does, he gets orders to play out an over, or rotate the strike. In some of those innings, he's always at the non-striker's end and is watching his strike partner. He's a tall, muscular hitter, so his sixes go very far, and may even reach the top tier of MCG if he puts in enough power, unlike Agarkar's which just scratch the boundary ropes. Imagine how many runs would have been lost if there were no boundary ropes.
There's a difference between that Zimbabwe attack and one comprising McGrath, Fleming, Reiffel and Warne, before they were the formidable pack they became later on. He wasn't as effective then. Even if PAthan has hit only four sixes, they came against bowlers like Muralitharan, Akhtar and an Aussie attack that ripped through the Indian top-7. Moreover, all his batting exploits, including a valuable 49 that helped build a vital partnership with Yuvraj against an active Pakistani attack, came from very low positions in the batting order. Adequate encouragement can change that.
Arjun
Cricketer Of The Year
He's still very raw and young. Much as he has scored little against Duleep sides, he needs more innings against top sides if his batting has to improve. He bowled well in that practce match before the Australia series, so he's learning. Rather than keep him out of higher level cricket because he may under-perform, you should give him enough exposure there.
He may get hit for four boundaries in an over by Sachin, but soon he would know why he got hit so often, and what he did wrong. If he had trouble batting against Zaheer Khan, he would know what his mistakes are and be better prepared. The inclusion in the Indian ODI side is a step down, given the quality of opposition- they have lost to quite a few A-teams, but he would benefit more by playing in Indian FC/List-A matches because of better quality batting and bowling. He will have trouble at the higher level and his averages may not be so good, but he'll know why, and what to do to perform better.
Arjun
Cricketer Of The Year
Does the scene really need the Challenger trophy? It is usually just an exhibition series where a bunch of strugglers playing for India make merry against fresh learners, who have not yet faced much of top level cricket. Even if it returns, the format should differ- All those who play for India and have performed very well in the recent past or are proven successes over the years and still have it in them should make the India Seniors team, those in not-so-good form in other teams, spread out. We know the kind of heroes it produces- Hemang Badani and Dinesh Mongia have been heroes twice, but have done little of note in ODI's.
What we would like to see is Siddharth Trivedi bowling to Sachin Tendulkar- he will get hit for lots of fours and sixes, but he will get the hang of bowling to Sachin- what he does to improve upon his performance is up to him. The same for Shikhar Dhawan facing Kumble or Zaheer, or Irfan Pathan batting in the top-6 against an Indian full-strength bowling attack, or Joginder Sharma against all of the Indian senior/A-team- no easy ride, has to adapt.
What we would like to see is Siddharth Trivedi bowling to Sachin Tendulkar- he will get hit for lots of fours and sixes, but he will get the hang of bowling to Sachin- what he does to improve upon his performance is up to him. The same for Shikhar Dhawan facing Kumble or Zaheer, or Irfan Pathan batting in the top-6 against an Indian full-strength bowling attack, or Joginder Sharma against all of the Indian senior/A-team- no easy ride, has to adapt.
Arjun
Cricketer Of The Year
Why was Sanjay Bangar given so many chances? In a country where a batting average of 40 is standard stuff, he averaged 37! Maybe his bowling could be of some use, but even then, he averaged over 38 and rarely picked up 5 wickets in an innings. He got an extended free ride, mostly to stay on the benches, while JP Yadav was performing a lot better with bat and ball and got treated harshly- he was at the rough end of selection policies. The same can be said of Ramesh Powar why was Vijay Bharadwaj (who's nowhere as good a bowler and just another batsman) given so many chances ahead of him? He should have made the Indian A-team in England instead!
Arjun
Cricketer Of The Year
Preferred XI's- Mumbai v/s Delhi
MUMBAI:
DELHI:
MUMBAI:
- Mane
- Jaffer
- Indulkar
- Shetty
- Mazumdar
- Bahutule
- Powar
- Agarkar
- Samant
- Kulkarni
- Salvi/Hazare/Shinde
DELHI:
- Chopra
- Gambhir
- Sehwag
- Manhas
- Jadeja
- Bhatia/Dhawan
- Dahiya
- Sarandeep
- Abhishek Sharma/Rahul Sanghvi
- Nehra
- Bhandari
Arjun
Cricketer Of The Year
Challenger Trophy lineups-
INDIA SENIORS
INDIA 'A'
INDIA 'B'
Feedback?
INDIA SENIORS
- Ganguly
- Tendulkar
- Laxman
- Badani
- Dravid
- Rayudu
- Sodhi
- Dinesh Karthik
- Agarkar
- Balaji
- Zaheer
- Harbhajan
- Murali Karthik
INDIA 'A'
- Chopra
- Gambhir
- Kaif
- Yuvraj
- Mithun Manhas
- Nishit Shetty
- MS Dhoni
- Ramesh Powar
- Anil Kumble(c)
- Gagandeep Singh
- Amit Bhandari
- R Ramkumar
- Nehra
INDIA 'B'
- Wasim Jaffer
- DS Jadhav
- Y Venugopal Rao
- Sriram
- Rohan Gavaskar
- Jai Prakash Yadav
- Sehwag(c)
- Ratra
- JS Sharma
- Irfan Pathan
- AM Salvi
- Sarandeep
- Mishra
Feedback?
Arjun
Cricketer Of The Year
Sachin, Kumble and Sehwag will miss the coming round of matches. Talk about being true to your roots. Rahul Dravid returns to his state side after a really long time, and every other player will figure in the corresponding Ranji side, except Harbhajan, Yuvraj and Joginder, since their teams don't have a match.