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***Official*** India in West Indies

JustTool

State 12th Man
Indian fans are so stupi d- here is a reality check

REALITY CHECK:

India drops down Test Championship table despite series win


Dubai, July 4, 2006 (PTI)

India may have won its first series in the Caribbean for 35 years, beating the West Indies 1-0 over four matches, but it has not stopped Rahul Dravid's side slipping down the LG ICC Test Championship table.

India has lost two rating points and a place in that table and now sits in fourth spot, below Pakistan, and the reason for that demotion is that the side failed to live up to its pre-series ranking.

Dravid's men began the tour a massive 39 rating points and five places ahead of the West Indies, and the 1-0 margin did not justify their superior rating.
 

JustTool

State 12th Man
I know it's hard for you to understand democracy and free opinion. You guys have no recourse except to make things personal and call people stupid.

Must be a poor upbringing ...... I feel sorry for you. Really do.

Dasa said:
Yes, we do. We really don't deserve you...
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
JustTool said:
REALITY CHECK:

India drops down Test Championship table despite series win


Dubai, July 4, 2006 (PTI)

India may have won its first series in the Caribbean for 35 years, beating the West Indies 1-0 over four matches, but it has not stopped Rahul Dravid's side slipping down the LG ICC Test Championship table.

India has lost two rating points and a place in that table and now sits in fourth spot, below Pakistan, and the reason for that demotion is that the side failed to live up to its pre-series ranking.

Dravid's men began the tour a massive 39 rating points and five places ahead of the West Indies, and the 1-0 margin did not justify their superior rating.

Blah blah blah. We won for the first time outside the subcontinent in 21 years. I don't care about a ******** test ranking table. I'll take a series win every time. Plus, how many points would we have lost had it not rained int he second test?
 

TT Boy

Hall of Fame Member
marc71178 said:
If you get sawn off first ball every innings you average 0 - but that says nothing about anyone's ability.
:unsure: What has that got to do with Lara? Who effectively got three or more starts in the series.
 

kvemuri

U19 12th Man
JustTool said:
Well, it's obvious that the sycophant fans here have no lives other than relating personally to India's cricket victories which they had nothing to do with. Believe me, you deserve better and some of these cricket "heroes" and Sania Mirza, and David Beckham much less.

The ONLY guy here who deserves MORE is Dravid. More accolades, more money, more everything.

Here is what Wadekar said today - now I admit I am nothing - but neither are all of you fawning fools. However Wadekar does know more than all of us combined:

"Harbhajan and Anil have always bowled well in tandem. Both bowled brilliantly and played a big part in the victory. In fact, it was a mistake in not playing Harbhajan in the first two Tests. Otherwise, India could have won the series stylishly with a handsomely bigger margin," the former left-handed stylish batsman said.

India deserves better from it's sportsmen. But until, the people wake up, they will continue to reward idiots from Bollywood and cricketers...neither of whom can really compete on the world stage. INDIA LOST 4-1 to a VERY WEAK side that were BEATEN by everyone else...
You know what dude...if you think you are THAT big of a genius, why don't YOU go and coach the team and see what happens? its easy to sit at home and throw bricks at one and all. Its absolutely easy to second guess people, oh and people like you are brilliant at it, maybe we should let YOU and that idiot from Cricketnext whats his name, Sanjay Jha, coach and select the team and see how brilliantly you fare. One of you can coach, the other can be the selector, if both of you are the same guy then God can only save the team, cause it will be made up of 15 Gangulys.

In fact i think you were very happy when we were on a confident losing streak as that way you the fear of winning doesn't get you, the sad part with people like you is that you are always miserable no matter what and you know what there is a solution for that and its called "THERAPY", will allow you to probably cope with your phobia of winning. Hmm...i wonder there is a word for that.
 
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kvemuri

U19 12th Man
silentstriker said:
The following Indian batsmen capitulated on that pitch (in bold):

Virender Sehwag
Wasim Jaffer
VVS Laxman

Rahul Dravid
Yuraj Singh
Mohammad Kaif
MS Dhoni



We are way way too reliant on one guy.
Edit: editted this one out. Damn, but i still think you are difficult to satisfy ;)
 
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kvemuri

U19 12th Man
silentstriker said:
Blah blah blah. We won for the first time outside the subcontinent in 21 years. I don't care about a ******** test ranking table. I'll take a series win every time. Plus, how many points would we have lost had it not rained int he second test?

Hmm...Ok i was more than a tad bit harsh on you, will edit my previous quote, just do me one favor stop getting on and off the bandwagon. Either sail with it or sink with it, when we win get drunk and enjoy it, when we lose get drunk, curse some players but get ready for the next match, of course if they continue losing you (like i have seen it over the years) obviously can't keep getting drunk as that will make you miserable and moreover its not good for the long run for your own health, just one more thing just tell me you are above 21 so that I don't seem like a Jackass ( which btw i know i am ;) ) advocating alcohol to someone less than 21 (in US its 21). ;)
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
kvemuri said:
Hmm...Ok i was more than a tad bit harsh on you, will edit my previous quote, just do me one favor stop getting on and off the bandwagon.
What does that even mean? If it means I stop supporting the team, then the answer is I never stop supporting the team. If, on the other hand, you mean that I should stop being critical of them...then the answer is that that'll never stop either. A brief look at my post history will show you that I praise them and critisize them, its never one way. Until they start winning every test, there will always be things that can be improved.
 

Anil

Hall of Fame Member
kvemuri said:
I give up...its too hard to satisfy some folks. Boy I thought i was harsh on Indian cricketers, I am being put to shame here. ;)
no but he has a point...what exactly are the positives of this tour? a win outside the subcontinent against a non-minnow side after 25 years? true....other than that what else? dravid's further growth in stature? that's great too...look on the flip side....on a pitch offering significant juice to the bowlers, which of these batsmen can you rely on? dravid, dravid, dravid, dravid, dravid and then some tail-end resistance right(dravid is one man and this is a team game, against better teams, even his efforts are not going to be half enough....)? as far as bowling goes, this series proved that we do have some upcoming talent as far as sreesanth and munaf patel are concerned, but are they match-winners yet? not even close....the fact is we are still heavily reliant on kumble and/or harbhajan to take out the bulk of the 20 wickets....pathan still has some ways to go to shake off the tag of a minnow-basher in tests.....the one-day series debacle is another cause for concern especially the way we capitulated....i don't see too many positives, on the other hand, there are quite a few posers that don't seem to have any short-term answers at least....
 
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JustTool

State 12th Man
India rebuilding must go on

India rebuilding must go on
By Paresh Soni

The Indian media, not known for understatement, have been measured in their appreciation of the cricket team's triumph in the West Indies.

There was none of the hysteria which normally greets such successes, which is surprising considering this was the first Test series victory over a major team outside the sub-continent in 20 years.

Two explanations immediately spring to mind: a perceived weakness of the opposition and the failure of Rahul Dravid's team to win more convincingly.

Although there have been signs of improvement, this is still arguably the poorest West Indies side since Ajit Wadekar led the last successful tour of the Caribbean in 1971.

But India were jolted by a hammering in the one-dayers and took their time to get going in the Test series.

Had they been more ruthless, India could arguably have been celebrating a 3-0 victory margin - as England did on their visit in 2004.


The hosts hung on for draws in the first two games and India failed to go for the kill in St Kitts before finally emerging as winners on a spiteful Sabina Park surface in Jamaica.

Perhaps India's win would have been more clear-cut if coach Greg Chappell had not kept tinkering with his bowling attack.

He dropped his most experienced seamer, Irfan Pathan, for the opening Test in Antigua, then brought him back for the second before discarding him for the rest of the series.

Off-spinner Harbhajan Singh was left kicking his heels until St Kitts but made an impact in the last two games, particularly in Jamaica.

Although Virender Sehwag filled in impressively as a second spinner in the first two games, the team clearly lacks an all-rounder who can fill the third seamer's role.

Munaf Patel and Sri Sreesanth, however, confirmed the promise they showed against England earlier this year and were among the biggest success stories.

They bowled with pace and accuracy on unforgiving pitches and represent one of India's most potent new-ball pairings in many a year.

A word of warning though - that was said of Pathan and Laxmipathy Balaji before the former lost pace and belief and the latter was discarded after injury.

Indeed the lack of back-up to this pair is probably why India are still not ready to consistently beat the top nations abroad.

The batting remains something of an enigma too.

Just when Wasim Jaffer looked to have solved the problem of finding a second opener and partner Virender Sehwag rediscovered his appetite and form, the middle order started misfiring.

Yuvraj Singh, who looked a world-beater towards the end of last year and earlier this year, had a shocker of a series and resembled his former frustrating self.

Mohammad Kaif, apart from a century in St Lucia, failed to convince and there was little from wicket-keeper Mahendra Dhoni other than a blistering assault on day four in St John's.

So a team which has spent the best part of the last five years on the threshold of something big, remains just that.

Whether it is down to selectorial indecision or inconsistency from key performers, one thing remains clear despite the Caribbean success.

This Indian team shows considerable promise, but they are still some way from being a serious challenger to Australia, the game's top Test and one-day side.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Jono said:
On 3 very flat wickets as well.
That last day hundred was NOT on a flat wicket. IF it was that flat, India would not have gotten 7 wickets. I watched the whole innings, there were few balls keeping low, few stopping, ball was definitely gripping and turning quite a bit. He just played quite brilliantly. By standing a feet or two outside his crease to the seamers and getting a BIG stride in against kumble, he was really good that day, and it was not as flat as is being made out to be, that wicket. NOt a minefield but a reasonably tough pitch to bat on.


BTW, I agree that he didn't have a good series with the bat, I was mentioning more in terms of captaincy in my previous post in this thread.
 

Dasa

International Vice-Captain
^It seems like you make excuses when Lara fails. I respect your views on most things, but it sometimes seems that you can't accept he can make mistakes as well.

Anyway, I think some people are being a bit negative about this series win. I definitely see many positives coming out of the tour, positives that outweigh the negatives IMO. Considering India has been average in Tests for a while now, this tour has been a definite improvement.
Dasa said:
Anyway, great stuff to finally win outside the subcontinent. India unlucky not to win by 2-0 or even 3-0, but a series win is a series win. Quite a few positives to come out of this tour I think - Jaffer, Laxman, Sreesanth and Munaf, and of course the performance of Kumble and Harbhajan away from home.
I'll justify why I chose those names;
Jaffer
I don't think he'll be an all-time great or anything, but he has shown he has the temperament for Test cricket. He's performed far better than any other Indian opener of recent times bar Sehwag. Sure, he didn't look too solid on the juicier pitches, but he has the technique to be able to sort those issues out I think.

Laxman
He is nowhere near what he used to be, but this tour has shown that he still has the ability to make useful runs, particularly when the team needs him. Even in the 4th Test, Laxman didn't make big scores but stuck around with Dravid in the 1st innings and battled through a very difficult patch. Laxman hasn't been treated too well by the selectors of late either.

Sreesanth and Munaf
Both of them showed that they have some ability (which they have shown before). More importantly, in their first tour outside India both showed enough positives to stick with them. Still a long way to go, obviously, but I think for two rookies on some unforgiving pitches it was an excellent performance.
That's another thing I meant to mention earlier. India may not have beaten the Windies as comprehensively as they perhaps should have, but the Indian team went into the series with a very inexperienced bowling attack. That they performed at the level they did is a huge positive IMO.

An interesting fact to note about Lara's performance in this series - he hasn't scored this slowly (series SR of 47.95) in a significant length Test series since 2001 against South Africa at home (SR of 43.01). It's also the slowest scoring rate for him in a Test series, barring the previously mentioned example and a one-off Test against Sri Lanka, since his debut series.
 
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Anil

Hall of Fame Member
Dasa said:
Laxman
He is nowhere near what he used to be, but this tour has shown that he still has the ability to make useful runs, particularly when the team needs him. Even in the 4th Test, Laxman didn't make big scores but stuck around with Dravid in the 1st innings and battled through a very difficult patch. Laxman hasn't been treated too well by the selectors of late either.
the fact that he just about barely did what he, as one of the most experienced, senior batsman in the team was expected to do, how exactly do you see that as a positive???

i can understand your point of view about jaffer, sreesanth and munaf although unless they perform against tougher opposition, i am wary about calling them huge positives but laxman? seriously?
 

adharcric

International Coach
Well, at least Laxman scored runs to match his class in this series, somewhat. Last time, he made a duck and got benched for the entire series.
 

Dasa

International Vice-Captain
Anil said:
the fact that he just about barely did what he, as one of the most experienced, senior batsman in the team was expected to do, how exactly do you see that as a positive???
Well I think that he hasn't been treated well by the selectors, and it's not easy to perform at a high level when you're shunted in and out of the team. So, I think that given the opportunity that he did make some runs at a time of need is a positive.

Anil said:
i can understand your point of view about jaffer, sreesanth and munaf although unless they perform against tougher opposition, i am wary about calling them huge positives but laxman? seriously?
I didn't say any of them were huge positives. :)
Seriously though, I am talking about their performances (including Laxman) comparing to the recent performance of India in Tests, which hasn't been too flash. In that context, I think these performances have been positives.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
It really hasnt been a great series for India once we forget that they havent won in West indies for 35 years

Here are the NEGATIVES :-

- India were rated far above the West Indies and yet lost the one day series 4-1. This is a HUGE minus.

- Yuvraj has slid back badly after the strides he made earlier in the season. This is a HUGE minus.

- Pathan and Dhoni, whose batting was the main reason why India felt they could afford to play with just five 'pure' batsmen, were so poor with the bat that this strategy had to be completely shelved (not because Dravid and Chappell are bloomin' idiots). This is a HUGE setback.

- The fielding was patchy at best and this is a cause for concern.

- Laxman played with great responsibility in one test but for the rest he was a shadow of his former self. He continued to be in the side only because the possible replacements werent great too.

- Kaif was dogged and determined in a couple of innings but did not look like a test player with great future for most times.

- Without Dravid we may have been drubbed and thats a terrible feeling considering the quality of West indian attack.

- Pathan's bowling was so ordinary that this 'spearhead' of the attack had to be dropped for more games than he played and that too when replacements were rookies. This is a HUGE cause for concern.

The positives were :

- Jaffers batting - but we would still want to see himagainst better attacks. Still a positive.

- Sreesanth and Munaf's bowling - not earth shattering but good enough to make up for Pathan's absence a bit.

- Sehwag's stuttering return to form and more importantly, an effort by him to stay at the wicket BUT his response to short pitched stuff which comes AT him must have been noticed by fast bowlers around the world and one looks ahead with some trepidation.

Overall a reason to feel happy that a blot has been erased but it wasnt something for which a motorcade will be awaiting the second ever victorious team to return from the Windies but HUGE WORRY that the team has slid 'southwards' (and not just in ratings) and does not look a formidable side at this point of time.
 
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Arjun

Cricketer Of The Year
Dasa said:
Anyway, I think some people are being a bit negative about this series win. I definitely see many positives coming out of the tour, positives that outweigh the negatives IMO. Considering India has been average in Tests for a while now, this tour has been a definite improvement...
Some good points there. While many still label this series win as one against a weak West Indian side, it's still an improvement over four years ago, when a similar team played for the West Indies and THEY won the series. Moreover, this Indian team is relatively a new-look unit, while that one was a better-established bunch. Ultimately, there's nothing, and I repeat, NOTHING, like defeating the West Indians in their own turf.

Not quite the Number 1 or even Number 2 team, but still a notable improvement. However, the team management should not take any backward steps from here, but should keep on improving. The idea to play five bowlers was a good one, but after the series-squaring defeat against England at home, they went backwards and played a sixth batsman. Ultimately, that sixth batsman was just excess baggage when needed most. Let's just hope they don't go back to playing just one spinner abroad in their forthcoming Tests.

For all the complaints that experts and fans had about Harbhajan's performance away from India, he's not had everything his way. His Test career abroad has been intermittent and when he's played, he's been a lone spinner, and the only bowler capable of running through a side anywhere. In comparison, the medium-pacers (and there have been one too many) played in supposedly friendly conditions and finished with sub-par figures. In fact, their overall figures are nearly as bad as Harbhajan's away stats, and he's got more five-wicket hauls abroad than each seamer has in his whole career, while Kumble has more than all the seamers put together. They don't need a third seamer abroad, unless that bowler can contribute something extra.

About your positives, you've got some valid points about Jaffer. His double-century may be on a flat track, but it's still substantial. Throughout the series, he's looked as much a part of the Indian side as one of the top five, unlike other openers who were not, and were picked just for the job. His reasonably vast array of strokes apart, his running between the wickets and his infielding were impressive, and he's definitely worth a shot in ODI's. When you can have Kaif, Venugopal and Uthappa in the ODI side, there's no reason why you can't consider Jaffer. The ODI and Test selections will be a lot closer, which will be good for both teams.

As for Sreesanth and Munaf, they've done significantly well this series, compared to the forty-plus performances of the then first-choice seamers last time. Sreesanth is a mystery of sorts, given his small size and the ability to suddenly bowl a few faster deliveries. His aggression and also the way he works out batsmen is quite remarkable. In Munaf, they have a potential striker who can compete with the Harmisons, Ntinis and Mohammed Asif of today, but he must be groomed properly. If he can carry his Test form into ODI's, that will add a genuine striker to the Indian bowling unit, which still seems to rely on Agarkar. Let's just hope that happens, because he's got everything a top class strike bowler needs.

However, if they continue to play just these two in Tests, there are chances that they will get overbowled, especially abroad. They still need a stock third seamer to back up for them, even if he isn't a striker. That stock seamer should also score runs, at least in chunks, if not big hundreds. This is where someone like Sanjay Bangar will come useful, and he did rather well when called upon to support the bowlers. That's why Irfan Pathan should still be in the frame, because he's not only reasonably good with the bat, but he's also one of the top seamers available for India.

Ultimately, even if the Indians get back to Number Three and even make a claim for Number Two, nothing should stop them from trying for Number One. That should always be their aim, if they are to become a top Test team.
 
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Anil

Hall of Fame Member
SJS said:
It really hasnt been a great series for India once we forget that they havent won in West indies for 35 years

Here are the NEGATIVES :-

- India were rated far above the West Indies and yet lost the one day series 4-1. This is a HUGE minus.

- Yuvraj has slid back badly after the strides he made earlier in the season. This is a HUGE minus.

- Pathan and Dhoni, whose batting was the main reason why India felt they could afford to play with just five 'pure' batsmen, were so poor with the bat that this strategy had to be completely shelved (not because Dravid and Chappell are bloomin' idiots). This is a HUGE setback.

- The fielding was patchy at best and this is a cause for concern.

- Laxman played with great responsibility in one test but for the rest he was a shadow of his former self. He continued to be in the side only because the possible replacements werent great too.

- Kaif was dogged and determined in a couple of innings but did not look like a test player with great future for most times.

- Without Dravid we may have been drubbed and thats a terrible feeling considering the quality of West indian attack.

- Pathan's bowling was so ordinary that this 'spearhead' of the attack had to be dropped for more games than he played and that too when replacements were rookies. This is a HUGE cause for concern.

The positives were :

- Jaffers batting - but we would still want to see himagainst better attacks. Still a positive.

- Sreesanth and Munaf's bowling - not earth shattering but good enough to make up for Pathan's absence a bit.

- Sehwag's stuttering return to form and more importantly, an effort by him to stay at the wicket BUT his response to short pitched stuff which comes AT him must have been noticed by fast bowlers around the world and one looks ahead with some trepidation.

Overall a reason to feel happy that a blot has been erased but it wasnt something for which a motorcade will be awaiting the second ever victorious team to return from the Windies but HUGE WORRY that the team has slid 'southwards' (and not just in ratings) and does not look a formidable side at this point of time.
very nicely put...the negatives far outweigh the positives for this tour and could be further exposed against tougher opponents....
 

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