***Official*** India in West Indies

[silentstriker]

Well, I've been known to get carried away slightly from time to time.

However, my point still stands that it is obvious from looking at history that India are a very poor away team. And, going by the current series, this has not changed.

By extension India, being a poor team, played like one and therefore lost to an average WI team that outplayed them in basically every department.

If I were more eloquent, perhaps I could have driven this point home in some other way instead of offending some WI fans. But I'm not, and so there it is.

 

[adharcric]

Thats rich adharcric, coming from you. I mean, c'mon, "Here comes the pace finally"????
While I agree that we fans tend to be sensationalistic, in this series, we did play poorly and deserve some of the critcism.

My use of pronouns sucks...

How is "Here comes the pace finally" sensationalist?
Munaf, Sreesanth, VRV and Nabi all showed (or it was reported) that they could bowl around 140 kph consistently, which we haven't seen lately (Zaheer, Pathan, Agarkar) in tests.
I must say, my sensational moment was the "Can someone please explain the Mumbai disaster?" thread. That was sad.

Yes, we do deserve criticism at times and praise at times.
The problem is that people jump on the gun and call Dhoni the next Bevan, Chappell the new messiah, Pathan the next Wasim, the Indians hopeless after one loss and believe the brilliant media.

 

[viktor]

How is "Here comes the pace finally" sensationalist?
Munaf, Sreesanth, VRV and Nabi all showed (or it was reported) that they could bowl around 140 kph consistently, which we haven't seen lately (Zaheer, Pathan, Agarkar) in tests.
I must say, my sensational moment was the "Can someone please explain the Mumbai disaster?" thread. That was sad.

Yes, we do deserve criticism at times and praise at times.
The problem is that people jump on the gun and call Dhoni the next Bevan, Chappell the new messiah, Pathan the next Wasim, the Indians hopeless after one loss and believe the brilliant media.

And you believed the reports.
Anyway, I wasn't really being critical, just pulling your leg a little..

 

[adharcric]

And you believed the reports.
Anyway, I wasn't really being critical, just pulling your leg a little..

Well, Cricinfo is usually believable and I'd been following these guys throughout the domestic season. Besides, they haven't been huge letdowns pace-wise so far. It's all good.

 

[Jono]

I think its fair that you did jump on too quickly with the hype about Indian pacers, but you weren't alone, far too many did. It really became irritating how that was all that was talked about on the boards.

That being said, no one claimed Munaf Patel was a good ODI bowler. From what I've seen, he has a long long way to go. I still believe Irfan to be a good ODI bowler, he was just smacked around by some very very good WI ODI batsman. And that's what Sarwan and Gayle are, very very good.

 

[adharcric]

I think its fair that you did jump on too quickly with the hype about Indian pacers, but you weren't alone, far too many did. It really became irritating how that was all that was talked about on the boards.

That being said, no one claimed Munaf Patel was a good ODI bowler. From what I've seen, he has a long long way to go. I still believe Irfan to be a good ODI bowler, he was just smacked around by some very very good WI ODI batsman. And that's what Sarwan and Gayle are, very very good.

I never said they were world-class bowlers, simply said they had the potential because of their pace. That pace got me a little too excited, I agree. As for Pathan, he just bowled poorly in this series; it was sensible but not great batting or anything, he just erred in length. Apart from this, he's been one of the top (5?) opening one-day bowlers this year.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Besides, they haven't been huge letdowns pace-wise so far. It's all good.

Despite being slower than Ajit Agarkar (who you mentioned earlier on this page as lacking pace) at practically every moment on this tour thus far?

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

That being said, no one claimed Munaf Patel was a good ODI bowler. From what I've seen, he has a long long way to go. I still believe Irfan to be a good ODI bowler, he was just smacked around by some very very good WI ODI batsman. And that's what Sarwan and Gayle are, very very good.

Gayle and Sarwan played really well, but Irfan Pathan looked extremely pedestrian.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

I said 4 of the games; obviously I did not include the 4th game, you dragged it in unnecessarily. Let us also not forget that it was mainly due to a Lara special.

Ummm... the West Indies were chasing a very mediocre score on a pitch that patience would bring runs. Lara was patient. I don't see how that innings could be considered special for anything other than discipline. It's not like it was a minefield out there.

If anyone played a special innings in the 4th ODI it was Dwayne Bravo. He came in at 94/3 and batted to the end. India were totally outplayed in that game.

The third game was close enough for me, not a comprehensive win, like you, know the 4th game.

I never said it was a comprehensive win. I did, however, imply that the West Indies were en route to something quite comprehensive until the final couple of overs.

Look, I do give WI the credit for playing better than India. But when you were watching the game, which I am assuming you did, did you not feel that the Indians underperformed; especially in the fielding and bowling?

The Indians underperformed, but the West Indies have struggled and lost against lesser performances in recent years. This is a West Indies team that cherishes ANY victory at all. A team playing poorly does not offer any assurance of victory. The West Inides had to raise their game greatly to emerge victorious 4-1, and anyone who actually watched the way they did it would see it fit to give them praise.

The captaincy of Lara was superb, the batting of Sarwan was far more mature than usual, the bowling of Gayle and Samuels was disciplined and clever, and the allround game of Dwayne Bravo was super.

Batting failure, I would say was due to some canny bowling and superb fielding by the Windies.

Ah, you could teach silentstriker a thing or two. At least you acknowledge that the West Indian cricket was not average. A team is only as good as its cricket, and the West Indies did not play average cricket in that series, therefore I don't see why there's such an insistence that India was beaten by an average team (reference to striker, not you viktor).

In the bowling however, it wasn't as if any of WI batsmen were going after the bowling, except Gayle, so it should not have been difficult for them to stick to a length. The fielding was poor, period. Again, they have fielded better in the past. Maybe the WI batsmen put some pressure on them but like I said, they have been there before.

Most of the West Indian batsmen did go after the spinners though. The use of the feet showed positive intent always, even when they could only score at 3 or 4 runs per over. The Indians didn't do that.

The use of the feet put pressure on the spinners, and when they didn't keep it tight, it added more pressure on the seam bowlers to do so. Only Ajit Agarkar rose to the occasion.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Thats rich adharcric, coming from you. I mean, c'mon, "Here comes the pace finally"????
While I agree that we fans tend to be sensationalistic, in this series, we did play poorly and deserve some of the critcism.

My use of pronouns sucks...

The point is that that criticism should not be at the expense of the praising the West Indies effort. There is room for both.

 

[silentstriker]

India were totally outplayed in that game.

Yes, thats what I am trying to say. They got beaten by a better team. WI are still average though. But India are well below average overseas.

The Indians underperformed, but the West Indies have struggled and lost against lesser performances in recent years.

They lost to better teams. WI are the worst team in cricket outside BAN and ZIM. Unless you count teams like SL and IND overseas.

This is a West Indies team that cherishes ANY victory at all. A team playing poorly does not offer any assurance of victory. The West Inides had to raise their game greatly to emerge victorious 4-1, and anyone who actually watched the way they did it would see it fit to give them praise.

If they had to raise their game 'greatly' to beat a bad team, then you have more problems than I thought. I think they played at the level they usually play, which is still higher than the level India played.

Ah, you could teach silentstriker a thing or two. At least you acknowledge that the West Indian cricket was not average. A team is only as good as its cricket, and the West Indies did not play average cricket in that series, therefore I don't see why there's such an insistence that India was beaten by an average team (reference to striker, not you viktor).

Well that depends on reference though, right? Bangladesh are well below average at the test level, but if they beat my school side 6-0, that doesn't mean they are now 'above-average'. Do you know the meaning of average? Anyone who has watched WI cricket for the past 5-7 years (like I know you have), would know that average is compliment.

There are the following test teams are in World Cricket (not counting zimbabwe):

West Indies
Australia
England
South Africa
India
Bangladesh
New Zealand
Pakistan
Sri Lanka


Average means, they played at the level of the 4th-5th best team in the world. In the past 5-7 years, they were well, well, below that level. So when I said they got beaten by an average team, they had to raise their game to be average.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

They lost to better teams. WI are the worst team in cricket outside BAN and ZIM.

Previous record would suggest that, but the way they played does not. That's my whole point. Your team is only as good as it plays. The West Indies played well, and therefore the team that India met was not the worst team in world cricket.

If they had to raise their game 'greatly' to beat a bad team, then you have more problems than I thought.

India playing poorly is still an average ODI team.
I think they played at the level they usually play, which is still higher than the level India played.
So first you call the West Indies the worst team in world cricket (outside of Ban and Zim) and then you say they played the way they normally do?

1. Have you seen any West Indies cricket outside of this series lately?
2. Have you even read the results of WI cricket lately?
3. Are you clinically insane or just biased?

Well that depends on reference though, right? Bangladesh are well below average at the test level, but if they beat my school side 6-0, that doesn't mean they are now 'above-average'. Do you know the meaning of average? Anyone who has watched WI cricket for the past 5-7 years (like I know you have), would know that average is compliment.

For the umpteenth time, it's not about the scoreline. It's about the way they played. Gayle, Sarwan, Bravo, Edwards, Samuels (with the ball) all played superb cricket. You were clearly far too busy crying over India's shortcomings to notice though.

Had the West Indies played the same and lost 5-0 I would still be pleased with them, as they would still have played above average cricket. It would have taken an excellent performance to beat what was an inspired West Indies stand.

 

[Jono]

Irfan and Harbhajan apparently not playing.

VRV Singh ready to make his debut. Not good signs at all.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

And for the West Indies, Dave Mohammed expected to play, with Runako Morton tipped to get the nod ahead of poor old Daren Ganga.

Corey Collymore has been passed fit and will probably share the new ball with Edwards.

 

[silentstriker]

Yea, this is bad news. Runako Morton, Taylor and Samuels will not be making it to the eleven for West Indies as well.

 

[superkingdave]

cmon Dave, will be watching later, India are batting first I see

 

[alternative]

thats just shocking... why arent Pathan and Harbajan not playing??
for cryin out loud why VRV???

 

[silentstriker]

Pathan probably missed out because of his form. I am suprised on the exclusion of Harbhajan...most likely its due to some injury.

And as for VRV....welcome to the wasteland that is the Indian [medium] pace attack.

 

[Magrat Garlick]

Gayle
Morton
Sarwan
Lara
Chanders
Bravo
Ramdin
Bradshaw
Collymore
Mohammed
Edwards

Attacking line-up! Tail arguably starts at 6...

 

[Jungle Jumbo]

Aaah, raw pace from the Indians. VRV to get smashed everywhere by Lara, Sreesanth to be expensive but pick up a couple, Munaf to be the pick of the bowlers.