***Official*** India in Pakistan

[Xuhaib]

i think salman butt, yasir hameed and imran farhat are all solid openers ... across the border gautam gambhir and wasim jaffer are openers of similar class, while sehwag is on a whole different level

Butt is much superior to the rest of the bunch though i must admit still fair distance behind Sehwag.
My Ratings
Sehwag-9
Butt-7
Others-5

 

[SJS]

Do you think Ganguly can contribute as a seam-bowler? I know it sounds like a ridiculous and overused idea, but he's been picking up a good amount of wickets for Bengal lately ... how? Does this mean Ganguly should be in the playing XI ahead of Yuvraj? If he could be of any use, then we could perhaps go in with two spinners and still maintain strong batting depth.

Ganguly can contribute as a seamer no more than Sehwag and Sachin can as spinners. Thats about it. It can be useful at times as sachin's bowling has been but you cant count on it.

The only legitimate way for including Ganguly is to play three regular bowlers and play for a draw. It would be a bad policy because if Pakistan put up a mammoth total and, God forbid, Akhtar and company get early wickets, we will never hear the end of it.

You can drop Yuvraj but it is looking increasingly unfair.

The Indian management has painted itself in a corner. I wish they had sat down at the time of appointing Dravid as captain and decided what is to be done with the former skipper so as to treat him with the dignity due to him. This would have meant telling him that his time has come and he would be played in one series which would be his swan song. Then he should have been played in all the three tests. This could have been against Sri Lanka.

After that, irrespective of his scores in that series, Ganguly would have bowed out. The way it was with Waugh. The one difference being Waugh captained in his last series. But we just cant do things right it seems. There are so many other considerations. Those who are going to finally get the short end of the stick (read ganguly) and his backers also made things worse. This is a mess that should, and I believe could, have been avoided.

Imran's views (yesterday I believe) are spot on. Its sad but these are facts we have to face upto.

If I am removed from the CEO's position in my company and wish to continue as one of the senior managers with a new CEO, I can assure you there will be many complications which are no good for the organisation (even if I was the model of discipline as was my successor). It affects other participants in the organisation as well and people find it difficult to pretend that the past is history.

Its an imperfect world and in such an event the future of the team (organisation) matters much more than any individual let alone emotions.

I can understand how terrible Ganguly must be feeling but I cant see what can be done. If he had volunteered to step down as captain, without being asked, (as Sachin did after his first stint) and maybe even requested to be allowed to take a couple of months off the game, I think things could have been different. But he was clearly not wanting to leave the position as skipper. Then, if he is removed, and thats a strong word for skipper or CEO, it is always going to be awkward if he stayed around.

Sad, but true.

 

[Pratters]

The situation isnt as complicated as is made out to be.

Players have played in teams after being sacked as captains by showing their worth in the past. Just because player X was captain earlier, it doesnt mean he cannot add to the team once removed from captaincy - as a player and because of his experience as captain.

Ganguly isnt comparable to Tendulkar, Dravid or even Laxman as a test player. I dont think he is stupid and did not understand this fact. He knew that youngsters will come along and challenge for his spot - guys like Yuvraj, Kaif. The situation was evident best in the Indian tour of Pakistan two years ago. I wrote then that Yuvraj should be played ahead of Ganguly. (The guy had scored two centuries in a Duleep Trophy match I watched and was looking in good nick)

As it happened, Yuvraj scored a century in a match and caused confusion in the team.

Ganguly could have understood there and then that his time as an assured member of the first XI would be dicey. He would have to fight it out. He may fight it out but it would lead to situations where he is in and out of the team.

Ganguly was younger than Hussain but still could have followed the path of retirement in tests, concentrating on playing the 2007 World Cup. But he wanted to play in both forms of the game. Can we grudge a person for wanting to play? Not really. He has to fight it out to be a part of the one day and test team like any other member of the team - which is only right.

Also, is it Ganguly's fault that he found himself in the middle of the politics of the board during the election period (like being sacked and brought back to the team repeatedly)? Not really despite the controversy which did happen between him and Chappell.

Ganguly didnt envisage the Chappell-Ganguly spat and being out from the team - interpreted quite strangely as a disgraceful thing by the media - in such a fashion. If not now, Ganguly would face the situation a few months later in his career.

The selection fiasco during the Sri Lankan test series shouldnt have happened.

But apart from that this is a normal situation. Competition for places in the squad is never bad.

 

[Arjun]

It may not be a bad idea to try out Ganguly as a regular fifth bowler. He doesn't have to rip through batting sides, but just provide steady support to Zaheer and Irfan (Agarkar is no strike bowler and RP Singh seems a better fit in ODI's than Tests) for a long period of time. There's not much the third seamer can do (certainly not much at all from this bunch) and he's nowhere as good as Kumble or Harbhajan to play ahead of one of them, so the one selected should score more than a few runs. Zaheer and Irfan need support to be more effective. That's when Ganguly as a third stock seamer may come good, but he'd still fall short of expectations that way– and while such a bowler should score his runs primarily in big shots, you can't expect that out of Ganguly.

 

[Pratters]

That's when Ganguly as a third stock seamer may come good, but he'd still fall short of expectations that way– and while such a bowler should score his runs primarily in big shots, you can't expect that out of Ganguly.

WHY should a 5th bowler score his runs in big shots necessarily?

 

[Arjun]

WHY should a 5th bowler score his runs in big shots necessarily?

He's got a second skill to fall back on. Even if he doesn't make a big score of over 150, he can then come back and bowl and take a few wickets. That's the advantage of having a multi-skilled player.

 

[Pratters]

He's got a second skill to fall back on. Even if he doesn't make a big score of over 150, he can then come back and bowl and take a few wickets. That's the advantage of having a multi-skilled player.

The second skill would be batting or bowling. Not hitting big shots. Kallis - big shots? No.

Irfan Pathan if he is to develop his batting big shots? No.

 

[Arjun]

The second skill would be batting or bowling. Not hitting big shots. Kallis - big shots? No.

Irfan Pathan if he is to develop his batting big shots? No.

Kallis is an exception. He plays for a long innings.

That second skill, here, is bowling. Since he's also got to bowl more than a few overs, he can take it a little easy while batting, so he can go for more big shots. Look at Klusener, Brian McMillan, Razzaq, Azhar Mahmood, Dwayne Smith, Gilchrist, boucher or even Dhoni. All of them have a second skill. And all of them score runs quickly, in big shots. When such a player will also bowl a chunk of overs, what's the point in draining him by making him play for a double century?

 

[Pratters]

Kallis is an exception. He plays for a long innings.

It is not necessary for the player to be able to execute big hits if he is a 5th bowler. A defensive player will not go for big hits because it would mean he would get himself out - certainly no way to help the team.

If Pathan for example, I repeat, develops into a better batsman, he would play his own natural way.

If a player bats lower down the order, some logic can be used to try and have him hit big hits. Even in such a scenario - there are guys like Dhoni and Agarkar to play that role while a defensive player can play his own way.

To have Ganguly come and try and hit big shots because he is playing is a 5th bowling option would be disastrous. If he or any player could play a role of an all rounder in some way (not sure that player exists except Pathan showing signs), it wouldnt matter if he plays agressively or defensively. He would veryuseful to the team regardless of whether he hits big shots or not.

 

[pug]

If he or any player could play a role of an all rounder in some way (not sure that player exists except Pathan showing signs), it wouldnt matter if he plays agressively or defensively.

Right. If his regular 20s and 30s are followed by 20 decent overs or so and maybe a wicket (or two or more on a good day), then he would be a real asset, especially since he has the ability to play a big innings.

 

[Arjun]

It is not necessary for the player to be able to execute big hits if he is a 5th bowler. A defensive player will not go for big hits because it would mean he would get himself out - certainly no way to help the team.

If Pathan for example, I repeat, develops into a better batsman, he would play his own natural way.

If a player bats lower down the order, some logic can be used to try and have him hit big hits. Even in such a scenario - there are guys like Dhoni and Agarkar to play that role while a defensive player can play his own way.

To have Ganguly come and try and hit big shots because he is playing is a 5th bowling option would be disastrous. If he or any player could play a role of an all rounder in some way (not sure that player exists except Pathan showing signs), it wouldnt matter if he plays agressively or defensively. He would veryuseful to the team regardless of whether he hits big shots or not.

It depends on what the team demands. The South Africans need someone to play a long innings, so Kallis fits the bill. The Indian team already have Sachin, Laxman, Dravid, as well as the openers to occupy the crease, but need a big hitter. Even if players down the order play defensively for a phase, it's all right if there's a reason for it.

But the advantage of having an all-rounder is that he's under a lot less pressure whether he's batting or bowling, so he can take more risks when he plays. That's how the likes of Klusener, McMillan, Cairns, Flintoff and Gilchrist play. Moreover, if all-rounders play aggressively, they conserve their energy for their second skill, when needed.

As for Ganguly, he's not one you would expect to fit the bill as a big hitter– he plays for a long innings. He can't be someone he's not. If he can make an impact as he is, that's not too bad, but that can happen only on a very good day.

 

[Pratters]

But the advantage of having an all-rounder is that he's under a lot less pressure whether he's batting or bowling, so he can take more risks when he plays. That's how the likes of Klusener, McMillan, Cairns, Flintoff and Gilchrist play. Moreover, if all-rounders play aggressively, they conserve their energy for their second skill, when needed.

But we havent had such a player since Kapil Dev retired!

 

[TIF]

It has all come down to which bowling combination India takes at the moment -

Option 1 - 3 pacers + 1 spinner - This will have Harbhajan, sitting out and only Kumble playing, and Pathan, Zaheer and Agarkar(or RP Singh) will play. The 2nd spin option will be provided by Sehwag, Tendulkar and Yuvraj combined. Can be a useful option if the track is a one which assits pacers.

Option 2 - 2 pacers + 2 spinners - This is the combination with which India goes. Also, the pitches in Pakistan are very similar to those in India, even if a pitch is there which assists pacers, it will break down as the match progresses and the cracks will develop gradually on the pitch and it will start assisting spinners. In the sub-continent, a pace-freindly track can stay that way for only 2-3 days before finally giving away to spinners. So, India should go in with 2 pacers + 2 spinners with Ganguly providing the extra seam bowling option.

Also, dont at this suggestion - Even Dhoni has been known to bowl some medium-pace in the nets and if India might need an extra seam option, trying out Dhoni for 4-5 overs wont be a bad idea. We can have Dravid keeping for sometime. Taibu, recently did it for Zimbabwe almost 2 years ago against Sri Lanka with Utseya taking the gloves while Taibu bowled and Taibu kept when the other bowlers bowled.

Option 3 - 2 pacers + 2 spinners + 1 all-rounder(Irfan Pathan) - With the emergence of Irfan Pathan as a all-rounder and Dhoni also to provide runs at the lower-order with even Agarkar chipping in with some useful lower-order runs, this wont be a bad idea after all. We will go in with a strong bowling line-up and if this means only playing 5 regular batsmen, look at the batting to follow - Dhoni(He is a power-player), Pathan(He is an all-rounder), Agarkar(He has a test 100 at lords to his credit and has scored the fastest ODI 50 by an Indian), Zaheer(Highest test score by a no.11), Kumble(3 test 50s to his credit), Harbhajan(A useful 32-ball 44 against Sri Lanka way back in 2001), so these 6 players can fit in the batting of 3 regular batsmen. Ignoring Zaheer, Kumble and Harbhajan as they havent done too much with the bat, still we will have a batting line-up right down to no.8.

The teams in each of the 3 options will look like -

Option 1:
Sehwag
Gambhir/Jaffer
Dravid
Tendulkar
Laxman
Yuvraj
Dhoni(w)
Pathan
Agarkar/RP Singh
Zaheer
Kumble

Sehwag+Tendulkar+Yuvraj=2nd spinner

Option 2:
Sehwag
Gambhir/Jaffer
Dravid
Tendulkar
Laxman
Ganguly
Dhoni(w)
Pathan
Zaheer
Harbhajan
Kumble

Ganguly+MS Dhoni=3rd medium pacer

Option 3:
Sehwag
Gambhir/Jaffer
Dravid
Tendulkar
Laxman
Dhoni(w)
Pathan
Agarkar
Zaheer
Harbhajan
Kumble

Dhoni+Pathan+Agarkar=6th and 7th Batsman.

 

[TIF]

But we havent had such a player since Kapil Dev retired!

That was true even upto 1 year ago(or say even 6 months ago), but with the emergence of Dhoni and Pathan, we have 2 players who can bat in a fearless way taking risks and scoring aggressively lower down the order. Also, Agarkar can do that to some extent.

 

[TIF]

...while Pace department of both teams are more of less of similar level.

There isnt too much to laugh in it. The Pakistani pace-bowling is over-rated whereas their batting is highly under-rated and its the reverse with India, our batting is highly overrated and our pace-bowling is under-rated.

To make that post look less laughable, he should have added - "Even Batting wise, both teams are at a similar level.

Comparing the Pakistani and Indian pace-bowling,

Pathan > Rana
Zaheer > Sami(too inconsistent and also both have good records against New Zealand with Zaheer being slightly better against other teams too)
Agarkar << Akhtar

So, thats 2 ">"s in favour of India and 2 ">"s in favour of Pakistan making the pace-bowling of both teams more or less at similar level. Do not forget this fact, in the last India-Pakistan series in Pakistan, Indian pacers did better than the Pakistani pacers.

There is nothing wrong in what "Wahindiawah" said.

 

[Pratters]

That was true even upto 1 year ago(or say even 6 months ago), but with the emergence of Dhoni and Pathan, we have 2 players who can bat in a fearless way taking risks and scoring aggressively lower down the order. Also, Agarkar can do that to some extent.

I mean one player who bowls and bats agressively.

Pathan - bowls but bats defensively.
Dhoni - doesnt bowl.
Agarkar - not the standard or expected to be the standard of a Kapil Dev as a batsman in future.

So the player Arjun seeks is non existant.

 

[TIF]

I mean one player who bowls and bats agressively.

Pathan - bowls but bats defensively.
Dhoni - doesnt bowl.
Agarkar - not the standard or expected to be the standard of a Kapil Dev as a batsman in future.

So the player Arjun seeks is non existant.

I never mentioned Agarkar as someone who can do that consistently. He has done that only very rarely, but not even his die-hard fans would call him as an all-rounder. He is just a bowler who can bat a bit.

Now it comes down to Dhoni and Pathan -

Dhoni, doesnt bowl, but then Arjun mentioned Adam Gilchrist on his list, so I had to give Dhoni.

Pathan, he bats aggressively and not defensively, check out his strike-rates for both ODIs and tests from the recent ODI and Test series played by India, so that makes Pathan as the player Arjun is looking out for.

Recent Strike-rates of Irfan Pathan -

58.21 in the Test matches against Sri Lanka - Higher than Tendulkar, Dravid, Laxman, Ganguly and Kaif.
67.47 in the ODIs against South Africa - Bit slow, but then he wasnt required to score quickly in that series making a 63 ball 46 recovering India from a 35/5 situation, 58 ball 37 when we were chasing 170-odd and a 2-ball duck.
122.91 in the ODIs against Sri Lanka - Onlu Suresh Raina had a better strike-rate among those making 50+ runs in that series.

 

[Pratters]

Strike rate of 85 in one dayers - agreed agressive.

Strike rate of 45 in tests - normal. Not bang bang explosive.

When I have seen Pathan bat - and it can be because I mostly watch tests - he has looked to play an inning and not go for the ban bang approach.

So I do not see him as an agressive player as such. In one dayers he could play that role.

But yes we both do see the possibility of him being an all rounder in the future.

Cheers.

 

[TIF]

There has not been a situation for Pathan to go bang-bang explosive in the tests. His strike-rate in tests is low because he played the first 1.5 years of his test-career as a bowler with not too many expectations from him as a batsman. It was only recently that expectations from his batting have arose and so has his batting strike-rate and average

 

[JustTool]

PLEASE HELP - anyone know ?

Who is going to telecast this in the US - DirectTv or DISH ? Or is it not going to be telecast ?

Who is going to telecast this in the US - DirectTv or DISH ? Or is it not going to be telecast ?