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***Official India in New Zealand***

Flem274*

123/5
I like how Southee is seen as an option to make our attack penetrative on flat tracks, he's one of the worst greentop culprits.

Franklin (often) and Martin (spradically), two of our best test bowlers in the last few years, should be kept away from ODIs because they are simply awful in them, despite Franklins good test record and Martins sporadic test success.

O'Brien, who was a test revalation last year, is an ODI possible, but he's no where near as good in them as he is in tests.

Southee needs conditions in his favour, as does Boult. They will probably learn how to bowl on flat test decks in future, but they aren't that good at it now.

Mills should probably remain an ODI specialist, because he's only good with the new ball in tests and he's far too valuable a bowler in ODIs to risk needless injury in test matches (becauseh e's not that good at them).

There's another danger that SJS, as right as his post was in many ways, didn't mention: England, after the B%P player splurge, tried to pick "wicket takers" for ODIs like Plunkett and Mahmood. There's several versions of those two in NZ domestic cricket, some have hope, but I can see them being pushed up too early/too high for their talent/skill level.

The problem isn't bits and pieces players, its the fact that our best test seamers aren't very good at ODIs, our only world class ODI seamer was pushed back in too soon after injury, Oram had the same problem as Mills, and that the Indian batting has capatilised on their own huge amounts of ability plus small grounds/boundaries and our issues.
 

NZ4life!

Cricket Spectator
Agree with a lot of what you say actually Flem274*, especially that Southee has to learn to bowl in all conditions. If he could do that, he'd be of huge value to NZ. Hopefully he will, and will be the next leader of the pace attack, but right now I have to conceed he's too inconsistent. Mills I reckon is world class, pure danger with the new ball in tests and deservedly rated one of the best ODI bowlers in the world (except the last couple of games). If he and Martin hit some form in the tests, and O'Brian bowls his test standard of the past 18 months... then you add Vettori and franklin to the mix.... well our bowling looks a whole lot better. I think our bowlers have the ability to be dangerous, they just have to actually be that.
 

Athlai

Not Terrible
We are way too hard on Southee, his first class career to date has been almost entirely at Test level. He isn't completely useless on flat tracks, its more the fact he tires so quickly than anything. Isn't able to keep up a consistent threatening pace or draw out long spells.
 

freckleslol

School Boy/Girl Captain
Who are we going to give the new ball to? Mills is pretty average without it; Franklin, well, I have no idea how he's bowling at the moment and then we have Martin who, as the 'spearhead' who would be expecting it wouldn't he?
 

NZ4life!

Cricket Spectator
We are way too hard on Southee, his first class career to date has been almost entirely at Test level. He isn't completely useless on flat tracks, its more the fact he tires so quickly than anything. Isn't able to keep up a consistent threatening pace or draw out long spells.
Thats a real good point, I think its just that he's got some huge expectations placed on him being 'the next big thing' after his success on his debut against ENG, and when he doesn't live up to them.... well.....
Give him time i say, he's still only young, and I reckon with a few years under his belt he'll be the biggest deal in our bowling lineup, or in our pace attack anyway
 

Howsie

International Captain
In a few years we should be fine:

Tim Southee
Trent Boult
Neil Wagner
Te Ahu Davis
Richard Sherlock (Maybe)
Andrew Matheison(You heard it here first)

And Of course......
 

Blakey

State Vice-Captain
In a few years we should be fine:

Tim Southee
Trent Boult
Neil Wagner
Te Ahu Davis
Richard Sherlock (Maybe)

Andrew Matheison(You heard it here first)

And Of course......
Doubtful about those guys. Davis has already shown he wasn't that committed to play and has had injuries and apparently is down on pace - which really was his number one asset.

Sherlock is Mr Injury personified and the games he has managed to play hasn't been able to show semblance of control.

Based on your premise for choosing pace bowlers, why have you left out McClenegnananan? Fast and inaccurate.

But pray tell, who is this Matheison fella?
 

Athlai

Not Terrible
Doubtful about those guys. Davis has already shown he wasn't that committed to play and has had injuries and apparently is down on pace - which really was his number one asset.

Sherlock is Mr Injury personified and the games he has managed to play hasn't been able to show semblance of control.

Based on your premise for choosing pace bowlers, why have you left out McClenegnananan? Fast and inaccurate.

But pray tell, who is this Matheison fella?
He didn't leave McC out, check out his signature.
 

Howsie

International Captain
Same age as me, I've played him a few times growing up. He played NZ Under 19's last year in England and this year too.

I was told by one of the ND guys he has already been clocked at over 140kmph and he is faster then Boult. Only thing is he does have some bad games, but when he gets it right he is very good. He also gets alot of swing.
 
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silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
What irked me about Thompson was that he was just so damn slow and hittable. Unless it is seaming all over the place in swinging conditions, he will be cannon-fodder.

This could be said for all our bowlers, but at least they attempt to put some pace on the ball.
I don't think it necessarily has to swing all over the place for him to be effective, but obviously he does need conditions in his favor if he is going to bowl below 130kph. A lot of his balls were in the 110-120kph range, but that might have been intentional to try to keep the pace off the ball. His natural pace might be 10-15kph higher, especially in Tests. But obviously that was my impression from one ODI, I'm sure the NZ fans would know more about him.

I somehow doubt the same type of conditions, in terms of ground size and especially flat pitches, will exist during the Tests. Even though I am an India fan, I hope not. One of the great things about cricket is watching players do well in different conditions, and I don't see what NZ has to gain by preparing flat pitches. While it is undoubtedly true that Khan and Ishant of 2009 are miles better than any bowler Indiahad during 2002, it really wasn't the bowlers who let India down in 2002 anyway - it was the batting lineup.

I really don't know what NZ has to gain by keeping it flat, their best chance is to make it so that the fast bowlers find lots of help. I really think they can win, perhaps even comprehensively like in 2002, if they did that. At the very least, you give yourself a real fighting chance. Obviously, NZ have done well in India before, so they certainly have the ability to win on flat pitches too so India shouldn't get ****y if they find a flat pitch, but it's an automatic boost to the Indian confidence if they find a nice batting surface where they can just plop the front foot down and start hitting.

Of course, NZ bowlers shouldn't help them along by bowling on the pads like they've been doing (what is up with that anyway?), but its not like the Indian bowlers have been that much better. Of course, though the scoreline may not suggest it, the NZ batsmen have been running wild over the Indian bowlers too (but that's sort of expected when India play anybody).
 

Flem274*

123/5
In a few years we should be fine:

Tim Southee
Trent Boult
Neil Wagner
Te Ahu Davis
Richard Sherlock (Maybe)
Andrew Matheison(You heard it here first)

And Of course......
*cringe*

If Sherlock and Davis A)stay on the park long enough and B) improve enough (and they have a lot to do) to reach test standard, then I'll make Richard "eat his computer"

I'd love them to make it, but I can't see it happening. They can't bowl straight, they can't get bucketloads of wickets at FC level and their unfortunate bodies are held together by toothpicks, safety pins and blu tack.
 

Arjun

Cricketer Of The Year
It's been a while, but then...
adharcric said:
Praveen has blown hot and cold throughout the series but he's bowled far better than those stats indicate.
Maybe he has, but as I said, all of the Kiwi bowlers average close to, or over, the dreaded mark of 40, so I thought, it may not be such a problem.
Not really. Sehwag used to be ordinary and inconsistent as an ODI opener so he was correctly (not) rated, except for commentators that used to come out with the "but he's a matchwinner". He's been a revelation since his comeback in Australia and Indian cricket is reaping the benefits.
Sehwag was, for a long time, the sole striker in the batting side, with every other of the seven batsman going slow- so they'd still crawl to 270 or 280 (300 soon was out of the question) and the task of getting quick runs would fall squarely on him. Not surprisingly, it told on his batting, as he got out cheaply, way too often. Now, with other batsmen capable of keeping the momentum going, he can breathe a lot easier now, and we're seeing a much-improved Sehwag since then. Maybe a period out of the Indian ODI side may have helped a lot. He may not have that fancy average over 40, but someone who can strike the ball so hard and so regularly, and still maintain a Test average over 60 and get big hundreds so often is hardly 'ordinary' in ODIs (especially in a slow-going batting side), and his style of play is why he's so inconsistent. Ultimately, any good coach will tell you, don't tamper with the way he plays.
 

Arjun

Cricketer Of The Year
adharcric said:
Originally Posted by Manee
Ftr, I think VRV Singh is a massive Test prospect.
He needs to add more pace or learn to swing or seam the ball - 85 mph with decent bounce and no movement is not a massive test prospect.
Exactly. VRV Singh was anywhere near national selection only because of his pace, but was found wanting in that- and every other facet. His fielding is dreadful, and that may be because of his fitness. We don't even see him turn out regularly for Punjab, and hasn't even made the North Zone team regularly. Other pace bowlers add a lot more value (long spells, movement, fielding, lower-order runs) than him, without the promise of pace.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
There's another danger that SJS, as right as his post was in many ways, didn't mention: England, after the B%P player splurge, tried to pick "wicket takers" for ODIs like Plunkett and Mahmood. .
I did, in the very first line ...


My personal opinion is that New Zealand cricket has suffered due to policies that were geared towards the 'bits and pieces' players as England had also tried and suffered.

I did not go beyond their original "Ronnie Irani" phase because we were discussing New Zealand. But you are absolutely right. You know there is this funny notion about "wicket taking bowlers" for odi's who are not wicket taking bowlers for Tests - not economically viable if I may say so :) People like Ajit Agarkar come in this category. These bowlers will tend to pick up wickets but be profligate with the runs. Very expensive most of the time. They are invariably characterised by a lack of consistency. They bowl a lot of lose balls. Agarkar would keep bowling "what we used to sarcastically call "an average delivery of perfect good length - meaning equal number of half volleys and long hops. While that is an exaggeration but it makes the point. The batsmen tend to go after these bowlers and tyhey willl pick up wickets either by the odd good delivery or because the batsman in his eagerness lost his attention. One has seen Agarkar take many wickets off very short deliveries that the batsman tried to smash off the face of the earth. Of course when they bowl a good ball (and Agarkar did manage those with his natural in-swing with the new ball and deceptive pace) they will get their man because he is in such an aggressive frame of mind.

I put Sri Lanka's Zoysa in the same category. If you do not lose your head to bowlers like Zoysa and Agarkar, you will score very heavily off them without the risk you will need to take while trying the same against more consistent bowlers.

To call someone a wicket-taking ODI bowler (which assumes he is not a wicket taker in Tests) is almost an oxymoron.
 
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SJS

Hall of Fame Member
My prediction : in two years we wont be talking of Parveen Kumar as we are now. This is the best he can do and others will replace him in that time.
 

Manee

Cricketer Of The Year
Exactly. VRV Singh was anywhere near national selection only because of his pace, but was found wanting in that- and every other facet. His fielding is dreadful, and that may be because of his fitness. We don't even see him turn out regularly for Punjab, and hasn't even made the North Zone team regularly. Other pace bowlers add a lot more value (long spells, movement, fielding, lower-order runs) than him, without the promise of pace.
His fitness is inconsistent and there is a lot going against him, which is why I chose not to qualify the statement. I have seen him bowl and see a great deal of talent for Test cricket, but we'll have to see...
 

Uppercut

Request Your Custom Title Now!
I did, in the very first line ...


My personal opinion is that New Zealand cricket has suffered due to policies that were geared towards the 'bits and pieces' players as England had also tried and suffered.

I did not go beyond their original "Ronnie Irani" phase because we were discussing New Zealand. But you are absolutely right. You know there is this funny notion about "wicket taking bowlers" for odi's who are not wicket taking bowlers for Tests - not economically viable if I may say so :) People like Ajit Agarkar come in this category. These bowlers will tend to pick up wickets but be profligate with the runs. Very expensive most of the time. They are invariably characterised by a lack of consistency. They bowl a lot of lose balls. Agarkar would keep bowling "what we used to sarcastically call "an average delivery of perfect good length - meaning equal number of half volleys and long hops. While that is an exaggeration but it makes the point. The batsmen tend to go after these bowlers and tyhey willl pick up wickets either by the odd good delivery or because the batsman in his eagerness lost his attention. One has seen Agarkar take many wickets off very short deliveries that the batsman tried to smash off the face of the earth. Of course when they bowl a good ball (and Agarkar did manage those with his natural in-swing with the new ball and deceptive pace) they will get their man because he is in such an aggressive frame of mind.

I put Sri Lanka's Zoysa in the same category. If you do not lose your head to bowlers like Zoysa and Agarkar, you will score very heavily off them without the risk you will need to take while trying the same against more consistent bowlers.

To call someone a wicket-taking ODI bowler (which assumes he is not a wicket taker in Tests) is almost an oxymoron.
I completely agree with all of that, but you know what's funny? Brett Lee...
 

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