****OFFICIAL**** Imran Khan vs Botham Debate Thread

[marc71178]

Botham batted higher up the order than Kapil, therefore he has a better runs/innings rate.

So if Chris Read bats up the order, he'd get more runs per innings than Geraint Jones would he?

 

[Goughy]

Consider this, for all yer ' subcontinent = batting paradise' notion :

During the 1980s ) the period in question-

India batting average in India = 36.6

India batting average away = 32.5

Difference = 40 runs per team innings, that is an extra batsman.

This is my last post on the matter. Im happy to see people post favourable posts about Imran but CC the Kapil thing is getting old and you are coming from a place of bias and the bizarre.

 

[Goughy]

.

And i beg to differ that Imran didnt shine as brightly as Botham did in those packer-depleted years : Imran for the last 50-odd tests averaged 19 or so with the ball and 50 or so with the bat- while scoring 5-6 tons and taking around 4 wickets/match.

Actually I tell a lie, this is my last post on the matter. How can you disregard the special achievements of Botham in his early years because they were not continued throughout his career and then cherry-pick Imrans best period? Why? I could tell you but Im too nice to use those words here.

Your arguements are inconsistent, wrong and flawed

 

[Fusion]

I just go back to the arguement that if Botham retired after 83, his record would have put him up there in probably 99% peoples mind with the very very best players of all time. And yet because of his unrivalled competitiveness he is penalised in peoples eyes because he played on with injuries that would have ended many a players career.

By the way CC, did you actually see Botham captain England at all

If he was such an "unrivalled" competitor, why did he let his fitness level suffer and became fat at the end? If he was such a fierce competitor, I would think he would've worked hard and stayed dedicated so as not to lose his edge. Also, many players play on with injuries. Imran was injured (and missed almost 3 years because of injuries) and often played with injuries. That's what is expected of great players, so Botham was nothing special in doing that.
As far as Botham's captaincy, nearly everyone hear agrees that he wasn't a great captain and was not able to handle the pressures of that role. I know this thread is purely debating their "allrounder" skills, but the fact that Imran and Kapil handled the captaincy aspect better (that too in the deeply political nature of the subcontinent!) gives them even more of an edge in my book over Botham.

 

[SJS]

So if Chris Read bats up the order, he'd get more runs per innings than Geraint Jones would he?

Imran batted lower than Botham and that why he has so many not out ( I havent counted actually ) hence boosting his average

 

[SJS]

OK, how about we end this debate and agree that I was the best all rounder of the 80's, except I never played. I mean, I batted like Bradman and bowled pace like Lilee and bowled spin like Warne, and had the reflexes of Jonty in the field and Sobers in the slips.

You were the greatest in my book !!

 

[C_C]

If the pitches were less condusive to bowling then why is his batting average not higher. It makes no sense.

As i said, 'less condusive to fast bowling does NOT equate to less condusive to bowling".

Actually I tell a lie, this is my last post on the matter. How can you disregard the special achievements of Botham in his early years because they were not continued throughout his career and then cherry-pick Imrans best period? Why? I could tell you but Im too nice to use those words here.

For one, in life, as in everything else, it matters not how you start. It matters how you stand when you are done.
For two, Botham's 'shining years' were a tiny fraction of his career and happened before he got found out and injured. Imran's 'shining years' were almost 60% of his career and I am noit gonna bother with explaining just who's 'best period' is more reflective of ability-the guy who did it for the BULK of his career or the guy who did it for a small fraction of his career before he got found out/injured.

 

[C_C]

So if Chris Read bats up the order, he'd get more runs per innings than Geraint Jones would he?

Most likely if Chris Read happened to do a lot better against McWarne than Geriant.
I will back someone who performs against the best of the best over someone who fails against them any day of the week, especially when their stats are very close.

 

[marc71178]

C_C completely missing the point...

 

[Autobahn]

As i said, 'less condusive to fast bowling does NOT equate to less condusive to bowling".



For one, in life, as in everything else, it matters not how you start. It matters how you stand when you are done.
For two, Botham's 'shining years' were a tiny fraction of his career and happened before he got found out and injured. Imran's 'shining years' were almost 60% of his career and I am noit gonna bother with explaining just who's 'best period' is more reflective of ability-the guy who did it for the BULK of his career or the guy who did it for a small fraction of his career before he got found out/injured.

Found out? For me what did it for Botham was injuries, which reduced what was in the beginning was some very quick-outswingers and often deadly outswingers to basically military medium in his later career.

 

[Swervy]

Found out? For me what did it for Botham was injuries, which reduced what was in the beginning was some very quick-outswingers and often deadly outswingers to basically military medium in his later career.

CC has always had this notion that Botham was found out...its is simply not true though. His ability to swing the ball all over the place at a fair clip didnt diminish because he was found out, it was because he had a bad back , put on weight and couldnt get his body into the positions whilst bowling that he could when he was younger when bowling..absolutely nothing to do with being found out

 

[Swervy]

As i said, 'less condusive to fast bowling does NOT equate to less condusive to bowling".



For one, in life, as in everything else, it matters not how you start. It matters how you stand when you are done.
For two, Botham's 'shining years' were a tiny fraction of his career and happened before he got found out and injured. Imran's 'shining years' were almost 60% of his career and I am noit gonna bother with explaining just who's 'best period' is more reflective of ability-the guy who did it for the BULK of his career or the guy who did it for a small fraction of his career before he got found out/injured.

well in fact I think the definite cut off point for Botham was in fact 1982 English summer season..which is 54 tests (out of 102), where he had a batting ave of 38, 11 test hundreds, bowling average of 23.5 and 249 wickets with 20 fivefers. Its hardly a tiny proportion of his career.

Compare to Imran whose batting average was only over 30 for the last 39 tests of his career and in fact whose average overtook Bothams only when Imrans bowling became none existant.

I think we can say Imran was a useful player for the first 30 tests, neither brilliant with bat nor ball. For me, his bowling really came on from about his 35th test upto about his 75th test, it was for that long he was a bowling of outstanding class and as devestating as Botham in his early years.

Imrans batting career can be split into 3, first 30 tests when he was a lower order batsman who could bat a bit, next 44 tests when he obviously was a good batsman , and the last 14 tests when he was solely a batsman and when his average jumped from 32 to 37 and a bit.

So really we can barely call Imran an allround for the last 14 tests, coz he was hardly a bowler.
There is no doubt that Botham the allrounder was better than Imran the allrounder in the first 30 tests of each players careers. So really infact Bothams period of actually being a premier allround of genuine world class (54 tests) actually last longer than Imrans ( 45 tests ish)

 

[C_C]

Found out? For me what did it for Botham was injuries, which reduced what was in the beginning was some very quick-outswingers and often deadly outswingers to basically military medium in his later career.

Botham always had a huge outswinger- i saw him personally bowling huge outswingers when he was a fat old man bowling no faster than me mum in the early 90s.
He got injured in his career but as it happens so often with western media, their posterchild's injuries get overblown to protect their image (such as Warne, Botham etc-though there were some genuine injuries and super stories involving western posterchilds) while actual injuries and impediment to careers to non western stars ( such as Lawrence Rowe, Tendulkar, ImranKhan, etc) get absolutely dusted under the carpet.
As far as i am concerned, botham was part found out, part injured for his terminal decline.

 

[C_C]

well in fact I think the definite cut off point for Botham was in fact 1982 English summer season..which is 54 tests (out of 102), where he had a batting ave of 38, 11 test hundreds, bowling average of 23.5 and 249 wickets with 20 fivefers. Its hardly a tiny proportion of his career.

Compare to Imran whose batting average was only over 30 for the last 39 tests of his career and in fact whose average overtook Bothams only when Imrans bowling became none existant.

I think we can say Imran was a useful player for the first 30 tests, neither brilliant with bat nor ball. For me, his bowling really came on from about his 35th test upto about his 75th test, it was for that long he was a bowling of outstanding class and as devestating as Botham in his early years.

Imrans batting career can be split into 3, first 30 tests when he was a lower order batsman who could bat a bit, next 44 tests when he obviously was a good batsman , and the last 14 tests when he was solely a batsman and when his average jumped from 32 to 37 and a bit.

So really we can barely call Imran an allround for the last 14 tests, coz he was hardly a bowler.
There is no doubt that Botham the allrounder was better than Imran the allrounder in the first 30 tests of each players careers. So really infact Bothams period of actually being a premier allround of genuine world class (54 tests) actually last longer than Imrans ( 45 tests ish)

Your argument is inherently flawed- it fails to account for the stages of career and has been worked around almost exclusively to service Botham at the expense of Imran ( or any fast starter compared to slow cooker) - Someone who's first few years yeilds runs at 60 ave. will almost certainly be ahead few years down the road to someone who's situation is reversed : flops for the first few years and then picks up steam.

And it is a categoric misrepresentation that Imran's batting 'was worthwhile' while his bowling was non-existant.
If you want to compare absolute peak years where both accomplished well and consistently with both bat and ball, Imran's considerably outstrip's bothams:
Between 1980 and 1989, Imran averaged 44 with the bat and 19 with the ball while scoring almost 2500 runs and taking 256 wickets in 54 matches .

It is true that Imran hardly bowled near the end of his career.
However, he was a regular bowler through till 1989 and his best period with bat and ball outshine's botham's best period with bat and ball handily.

 

[Swervy]

Botham always had a huge outswinger- i saw him personally bowling huge outswingers when he was a fat old man bowling no faster than me mum in the early 90s.
He got injured in his career but as it happens so often with western media, their posterchild's injuries get overblown to protect their image (such as Warne, Botham etc-though there were some genuine injuries and super stories involving western posterchilds) while actual injuries and impediment to careers to non western stars ( such as Lawrence Rowe, Tendulkar, ImranKhan, etc) get absolutely dusted under the carpet.
As far as i am concerned, botham was part found out, part injured for his terminal decline.

oh its all such a conspiracy isnt it....I guess the media plain old lied about the surgery Botham had in the mid 80's due to a back injury which had started several years previously.

So warnes shoulder and Bothams back..and no doubt Lillees back arent worthy of media attention (as you seem to imply they are the figments of the medias imagination).

I think most of us old enough to remember know of the problems Imran had with stress fractures, and Rowe had with his allergies, I dont think they were swept under the carpet at all.

 

[Swervy]

Your argument is inherently flawed- it fails to account for the stages of career and has been worked around almost exclusively to service Botham at the expense of Imran ( or any fast starter compared to slow cooker) - Someone who's first few years yeilds runs at 60 ave. will almost certainly be ahead few years down the road to someone who's situation is reversed : flops for the first few years and then picks up steam.

And it is a categoric misrepresentation that Imran's batting 'was worthwhile' while his bowling was non-existant.
If you want to compare absolute peak years where both accomplished well and consistently with both bat and ball, Imran's considerably outstrip's bothams:
Between 1980 and 1989, Imran averaged 44 with the bat and 19 with the ball while scoring almost 2500 runs and taking 256 wickets in 54 matches .

It is true that Imran hardly bowled near the end of his career.
However, he was a regular bowler through till 1989 and his best period with bat and ball outshine's botham's best period with bat and ball handily.

well its the danger with using statistics....I would prefer my own judgement having seen both players at their peaks (something you never had the joy of watching)...and my judgement is that Botham at his best was a better allround player than Imran, whose peaks in the two 'main' discipline' simply didnt come together.

Whatever you say CC, Imran was considered no more than a useful lower order batsman for much of his career, and it was only in the last maybe 5 years he could have been considered genuinely as a batsman who could possibly have gotten into the Pakistan team on batting merit alone, and considering his bowling wasnt too great for 2 of those years, then again it looks like Bothamwas actually a top notch allrounder for longer

 

[Goughy]

Botham had vertebrae fused together in his back.

It was more than just an injury, it was a change as to how his whole body worked.

 

[Autobahn]

He got injured in his career but as it happens so often with western media, their posterchild's injuries get overblown to protect their image (such as Warne, Botham etc-though there were some genuine injuries and super stories involving western posterchilds) while actual injuries and impediment to careers to non western stars ( such as Lawrence Rowe, Tendulkar, ImranKhan, etc) get absolutely dusted under the carpet.
As far as i am concerned, botham was part found out, part injured for his terminal decline.

Thing is outswing won't alone get wickets regularly you need pace to go with it especially at test level.

Well tendulkar's injury certainly wasn't swept under the carpet i know that for certain so don't start trying to mine that arguement.

Protecting their posterchild image? If anything it was press demand that forced the cricket authorities to suspend botham for a year following the weed allegations.

And don't start trying to turn this into a arguement about your problems with the "Western Media".

 

[C_C]

oh its all such a conspiracy isnt it....I guess the media plain old lied about the surgery Botham had in the mid 80's due to a back injury which had started several years previously.

So warnes shoulder and Bothams back..and no doubt Lillees back arent worthy of media attention (as you seem to imply they are the figments of the medias imagination).

I think most of us old enough to remember know of the problems Imran had with stress fractures, and Rowe had with his allergies, I dont think they were swept under the carpet at all.

Not figments, just massively exgaggerated to cover up failures (such as Warne's shoulder injury magically being extended to the test series before it even happened so that the media could provide some excuse for his abyssmal failure).

As i said- Botham had his problem with injuries but so did many other players. And botham's slide was in part injuries, in part being found out.

 

[C_C]

Botham had vertebrae fused together in his back.

It was more than just an injury, it was a change as to how his whole body worked.

Big freaking deal. I have two vertibraes fused in my lower back ( got crunched between two cars once when i was a kid) and i've done shovelling work for 3 months before( 8 hours a day).
It aint that big a deal to have fused vertibrae in your back.