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*Official* Group A Discussion - Pakistan, West Indies, Australia, India

Johnners

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Speaking hypothetically here, but if India's match v WI is also rained out, yet Australia/Pakistan goes ahead fine, is there any chance the India v WI match would be replayed? Just seems a little harsh that with no reserve days, a team could hypothetically be knocked out because they had less opportunity to score more points than the opposition due to circumstances beyond their control.
 

Black_Warrior

Cricketer Of The Year
Now a little thought is required here. Every other team has at least three multi-skilled players. Not quite the genuine all-rounder by definition, but each of these teams has got enough players who can be at least decent at both skills. We can identify two types in them-
  • Type A: Watson, Hopes, Cameron White, Luke Wright, Jacob Oram, Shoaib Malik, Albie Morkel, Roelof van der Merwe, Sanath, Matthews, Gayle
  • Type B: Johnson, Lee, Hauritz, Swann, Broad, Vettori, Franklin, Mills, Afridi, Rana Naved, Botha, Parnell (?), Kulasekara, Thushara, Bravo
You can guess what each type is. Some may be swapped. Kallis and Flintoff may be left out because they're full-fledged all-rounders who can go solo, while these operate in groups. I've also left out Type C, which includes the wicketkeepers.

Now India need to identify some players who can go the distance, for either type. We've seen the Indians lack bowling strength when they play seven batsmen, and with five bowlers, the batting solidity is missing. Put two together, and they need multi-skilled players, and more than one. Genuine all-rounders are very hard to come by, so this is the next best. They need to groom a pool, to get one of Type A and two of Type B, to maintain balance in the team. More importantly, they need to find players who can adapt to this properly, so that they don't compromise on their main skill. Who can do the multiple role of either type for India?
India does have the Pathan brothers...who can fit in either of the groups you mention...Sehwag can bowl a bit of spin if you are considering the likes of Broad and Swann who can just bat a little bit
 

AaronK

State Regular
Dropping Harbhajan- That's too tough a call to take, especially if they're going into the semis of the Champions Trophy. While statistics may not back him, he may provide more in terms of intangibles- particularly experience, which can translate into knowledge for the other spinners. Already the pacers are handicapped because of Zaheer's absence. Of course, the next time the Indians play a needless, useless ODI tournament (Kitply, Wealthsurance, all those obscure sponsors), he can sit out of it, with Ishant.

Now a little thought is required here. Every other team has at least three multi-skilled players. Not quite the genuine all-rounder by definition, but each of these teams has got enough players who can be at least decent at both skills. We can identify two types in them-
  • Type A: Watson, Hopes, Cameron White, Luke Wright, Jacob Oram, Shoaib Malik, Albie Morkel, Roelof van der Merwe, Sanath, Matthews, Gayle
  • Type B: Johnson, Lee, Hauritz, Swann, Broad, Vettori, Franklin, Mills, Afridi, Rana Naved, Botha, Parnell (?), Kulasekara, Thushara, Bravo
You can guess what each type is. Some may be swapped. Kallis and Flintoff may be left out because they're full-fledged all-rounders who can go solo, while these operate in groups. I've also left out Type C, which includes the wicketkeepers.

Now India need to identify some players who can go the distance, for either type. We've seen the Indians lack bowling strength when they play seven batsmen, and with five bowlers, the batting solidity is missing. Put two together, and they need multi-skilled players, and more than one. Genuine all-rounders are very hard to come by, so this is the next best. They need to groom a pool, to get one of Type A and two of Type B, to maintain balance in the team. More importantly, they need to find players who can adapt to this properly, so that they don't compromise on their main skill. Who can do the multiple role of either type for India?
I agreee.. I haven't honestly seen a good alrounder in indian side for such a long time...irfan Pathan started really good but not quit there... so that is one of the main problem i am seeing with indian team so far..

And their fast bowlers are a bit inconsistant.. Zaheer is good enough to lead the attack but often team he doesn't have someone to support him from other end..
 

Furball

Evil Scotsman
In fairness, in the last 18 months Yuvraj is edging towards being considered an all rounder. 21 wickets @ 34 in your last 35 ODIs where you've scored over 1300 runs @ 47 is a bloody useful contribution.
 

Arjun

Cricketer Of The Year
India does have the Pathan brothers...who can fit in either of the groups you mention...Sehwag can bowl a bit of spin if you are considering the likes of Broad and Swann who can just bat a little bit
Dhoni doesn't seem to get along well with the Pathans, for some reason. They seem the best bets, but when out of form, they're quite dire. But just two are not enough; they need more. They need two batsmen who can take a few wickets, and three bowlers who can score chunks of runs that add up, and the top three keep playing. I don't find anyone, except the off-colour Yusuf and the untried Mishra, capable of handling that.
I agreee.. I haven't honestly seen a good alrounder in indian side for such a long time...irfan Pathan started really good but not quit there... so that is one of the main problem i am seeing with indian team so far..
The decision to drop Irfan was on his declining form, but his more specialised replacements seem worse. It is a problem, as the Indians are faced with a twin problem of weak part-time bowlers and a long tail.

But even then, most teams have tails which are long, but productive. Most of the bowlers in those teams are far from Jacques Kallis or Andrew Flintoff, but together, they do a great job. India can assemble a few like that.
In fairness, in the last 18 months Yuvraj is edging towards being considered an all rounder. 21 wickets @ 34 in your last 35 ODIs where you've scored over 1300 runs @ 47 is a bloody useful contribution.
Have you looked at how many overs he's bowled? Or what stage he's been brought in? Or how many runs he scores when he has bowled a lot? Those stats are very deceptive- Yuvraj Singh is way behind any of the Type A bowlers I have listed, and Dhoni has had to protect him a great deal. When Dravid threw him in the deep end in England in 2007, Dimi smashed him for five sixes in the final over. In New Zealand, he bowled five overs a game, and finished with substandard batting and bowling figures.

Is Yuvraj good enough to go the long haul? A replacement for Harbhajan? Or a rookie Ojha? No way. In fact, if stretched, you'll even lose your batting mainstay, something you can't afford. Likewise Sehwag, Raina and Tendulkar. They're not all-rounders, and not even proper investments. Let's not forget, in the India-Australia series in 2008, Clarke and Sehwag bowled a lot of overs. Their batting suffered in those games. Leave it to someone fresh.

So far, India's Type A prospects would be Yusuf, Abhishek Nayar, Ravi Jadeja and Rajat Bhatia, and the Type B pool may have Irfan, Piyush Chawla, Praveen Kumar, Mishra, Ashwin, and a few more, but the top two or three of each will suffice. Looking at the lower order of Australia, Sri Lanka and New Zealand, I'd say India needs something like that.
 

pup11

International Coach
Pretty gutted about the fact that the game got abandoned, and hopefully we would just secure a win against Pakistan, so it all doesn't come down to all that NRR nonsense..!!

As for the game, loved the way we batted in slightly dodgy conditions, was very good effort from the likes of Paine, Ricky and Huss (who once again showed how important a player he still is).

Anyways, don't want to sound Anti-Clarke, but the batting line-up is looking so much better without him in there, hopefully he takes a cue from this and goes back to NSW and works on his OD game, he is a fantastic player and is definitely going to be a key player for us in all three forms of the game, but at present a stint with NSW would only help him get better and reinvent his OD game.

On a side note, Watto is learning it the hard way that, one should make big runs when things are going your way, I guess his duck yesterday was his third one in a row.
 
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pup11

International Coach
Speaking hypothetically here, but if India's match v WI is also rained out, yet Australia/Pakistan goes ahead fine, is there any chance the India v WI match would be replayed? Just seems a little harsh that with no reserve days, a team could hypothetically be knocked out because they had less opportunity to score more points than the opposition due to circumstances beyond their control.
Well if that turns out to be the case then its just bad luck, as they surely won't be the first or the last team to whom a such a thing might happen, and on top of all that one can't say that India have played kind of cricket deserving of a spot in semis.
 

pup11

International Coach
Dhoni doesn't seem to get along well with the Pathans, for some reason. They seem the best bets, but when out of form, they're quite dire. But just two are not enough; they need more. They need two batsmen who can take a few wickets, and three bowlers who can score chunks of runs that add up, and the top three keep playing. I don't find anyone, except the off-colour Yusuf and the untried Mishra, capable of handling that.
The decision to drop Irfan was on his declining form, but his more specialised replacements seem worse. It is a problem, as the Indians are faced with a twin problem of weak part-time bowlers and a long tail.
I think Irfan Pathan is a going to be a much better option for India, the Indian management should just stop seeing him as a main bowler, and rather concentrate on what he can offer with the bat, I think he can be a pretty consistent no.7 for India, and Dhoni can also squeeze out some overs from him, he is definitely a much better option that Y.Pathan, Nayar, or anyone else for that matter.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
well don't start this terrorism thing here in sports forum, otherwise everyone knows who's behind these ****ing Taliban
so just leave it
you are the one who started the stupid accusations mate... if there is a social point you wanna make, make it elsewhere. BCCI are not getting rid of Pak's chances of cricket. As a matter of fact, they were saving you for a very long time with bilateral series every year... BCCI values PCB's support and vote and PCB values BCCI's money and the fact that they were helping them when most others' weren't. But for the Mumbai tragedy, BCCI would still be shouting for PCB's cause and PCB will be the most vocal supporter of everything BCCI says...


The thing is, BCCI cannot go against the Government and after the Mumbai incident, the Government was understandably strict that sporting relations with Pakistan cannot continue.. I am not going to get into a war of words regarding Kashmir and Terrorism here.. As a matter of fact, I am really not all that knowledgable in this issue but it was pretty easy to see why the Indian Government won't want to engage in sporting stuff with Pakistan so soon after the tragedy. And it also made sense that BCCI slowly started withdrawing their support to the PCB in most stuff at the ICC level..


Now that the Governments are talking and once something tangible happens at the diplomatic level, you will see more support from BCCI to the PCB...



But cricket in Pakistan will remain distant as long as you have terrorists there.. The Sri Lanka incident is a real example...
 

pup11

International Coach

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Pakistan and Australia have looked the sides with more firepower so far and it is only fitting that they go through.. Still hope India at least have a chance to decide their own fate in the match against West Indies... Fancied us chasing down 166 in 20 overs yesterday, tbh...



The trophy is such that there is no room for comebacks mostly and if you don't hit it running, you are out and that is what has happened. Pakistan went well early, got accustomed to the conditions, won a couple of crucial tosses and took advantage.. Still don't see them as champion material although it would be so heartening to see them as World T20 and Champions Trophy holders at the same time... England have been the dark horses so far... But right now, I will be extremely surprised if any team other than Pak or Aus win this..
 

four_or_six

Cricketer Of The Year
This leaves no-one who has got through from the start of the Pakistan ODIs in April without either being rested or getting injured. Australia have had a pretty ridiculous schedule.

Just looking at that Pakistan squad, Hauritz and Watson are the only other two still playing who have played right through, although they both missed a couple of matches in the tests. They must be exhausted though.
 

Xuhaib

International Coach
Pakistan and Australia have looked the sides with more firepower so far and it is only fitting that they go through.. Still hope India at least have a chance to decide their own fate in the match against West Indies... Fancied us chasing down 166 in 20 overs yesterday, tbh...



The trophy is such that there is no room for comebacks mostly and if you don't hit it running, you are out and that is what has happened. Pakistan went well early, got accustomed to the conditions, won a couple of crucial tosses and took advantage.. Still don't see them as champion material although it would be so heartening to see them as World T20 and Champions Trophy holders at the same time... England have been the dark horses so far... But right now, I will be extremely surprised if any team other than Pak or Aus win this..

Australia or SL (if they get lucky) should win it, hoping for a Pakistan win but will not happen with Gul in this sort of form Pakistan chasing in a pressure game is also usually not the best thing to watch.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Australia or SL (if they get lucky) should win it, hoping for a Pakistan win but will not happen with Gul in this sort of form Pakistan chasing in a pressure game is also usually not the best thing to watch.
yes, also the middle order guys need time to settle down befoe they can go big.. that might be a real minus when chasing a big score.. The toss has been crucial in the sense that most of the teams seem to line up in such a way that it is a big advantage to bat first.. In terms of the batsmen set up etc...
 

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