**Official** English Football Season 2023/24

[Molehill]

Yeah but the fact that you’ve had to go back 33 years for an example proves my point.

Yeah, but we've really only got 4 managers of success and longevity to work with in that period.

 

[Pothas]

They are the best managers though. Just sticking with someone forever doesn't automatically make them better.

 

[Uppercut]

nah Spurs were justified in sacking Poch, their league form was dire for that entire year and was masked by the champions league final they ****ed up by trying to chase gloryhound managers instead of sticking with what worked for them for so long

Imagine telling someone, when Poch replaced Tim Sherwood, that it would end with people earnestly saying things like "they had to sack him, getting to a Champions League final five months earlier just papered over the cracks." Spurs were a joke club and he completely transformed their entire culture. He was such a victim of his own success.

 

[Skipper Pup]

A lot of online Arsenal fans wanted Arteta out at a couple of particularly low points, but I never got the impression the club were considering it, or that the dressing room had turned against him. The results were poor but the usual ‘this really isn’t working’ warning signs weren’t there.

Leeds firing Bielsa is another good example. I didn’t think they should’ve fired Marsch either but that’s more controversial.

Bielsa definitely a shout. Gary O'Neil and Bournemouth is another.

Poch was rightfully shown the door

 

[Spark]

Imagine telling someone, when Poch replaced Tim Sherwood, that it would end with people earnestly saying things like "they had to sack him, getting to a Champions League final five months earlier just papered over the cracks." Spurs were a joke club and he completely transformed their entire culture. He was such a victim of his own success.

Tbf this can all be true and the sacking still be the correct decision in the moment. Not saying that that decision was one of those, but sometimes an arrangement simply outlives its shelf life without any real fault on either side being the cause.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Liverpool's golden era was under three managers tbf

4, tbf. Unless you're not counting the Kenny years as part of that era?

Also, the Boot Room, isn't it? Liverpool way, promoting from within, etc.

 

[Socerer 01]

Imagine telling someone, when Poch replaced Tim Sherwood, that it would end with people earnestly saying things like "they had to sack him, getting to a Champions League final five months earlier just papered over the cracks." Spurs were a joke club and he completely transformed their entire culture. He was such a victim of his own success.

do you also think Leicester were wrong to sack Ranieri after he won them the title? or were Chelsea wrong to sack di Matteo after he won them the champions league for the 1st time that other better managers never did?

 

[Socerer 01]

to add perspective to my earlier post they didnt win 1 away league game since Jan 2019 till he was sacked in November. its not unheard of for a transformative manager to lose their magic at a club after a point, Klopp went through the same at Dortmund

 

[Pothas]

Haha comparing Poch at Spurs to di Matteo at Chelsea is absolutely mad.

 

[Molehill]

I think it'll be interesting to see how long Poch gets at Chelsea. This feels like a 3 year minimum project to get it right, but it could bring significant success if he's allowed the time. Big If mind....

 

[Uppercut]

Tbf this can all be true and the sacking still be the correct decision in the moment. Not saying that that decision was one of those, but sometimes an arrangement simply outlives its shelf life without any real fault on either side being the cause.

Yeah I agree. At the time it felt like it was becoming untenable. I might even have agreed with it back then, I can’t really remember.

But with hindsight I think the zoomed out perspective was the right one. The squad was at the end of a cycle and they were just never going to find a better manager for the next one. Accept going through a down year, let him clear out the squad, and start rebuilding.

 

[Socerer 01]

Haha comparing Poch at Spurs to di Matteo at Chelsea is absolutely mad.

this is just wilfully misinterpreting the point and you know it

 

[Pothas]

How is it? You are the one who brought up the comparison

 

[Socerer 01]

Yeah I agree. At the time it felt like it was becoming untenable. I might even have agreed with it back then, I can’t really remember.

But with hindsight I think the zoomed out perspective was the right one. The squad was at the end of a cycle and they were just never going to find a better manager for the next one. Accept going through a down year, let him clear out the squad, and start rebuilding.

Poch was the one who wanted lo Celso instead of Bruno and also wanted Ndombele didnt he? maybe he would have been the right guy to stick with at that time but their form was dire, the players looked exhausted and like you said it felt untenable. its not even the 1st eg of an intense manager who took a club to the next level eventually burning out as I pointed with Klopp so im not sure why this is such a controversial opinion

 

[Socerer 01]

How is it? You are the one who brought up the comparison

because the argument for Poch staying that is being presented is “he took them to the final” when there were issues around the club that also involved him at that time and it became worse after it. if an outstanding achievement should give you immunity from pressure then Leicester and Chelsea should have stuck with their managers at that point too, it wasnt a comparison on their managerial ability. the same argument was thrown at Leicester when they sacked Ranieri from neutrals about how harsh it was and that the club was mad to do so but their fans were content with it

its not even a decision you could say was wrong in hindsight since Poch has been sacked from PSG after making a trio of Neymar Messi and Mbappe of all players look dull to watch and hasn’t set the world on fire at Chelsea either and Tottenham havent turned into a mid table club and are still challenging for european football which is their ceiling

 

[Pothas]

The argument was that he transformed the club into one capable of making the final. That is obviously completely different to Di Matteo taking over half way through a season and fluking a Champions League win.

The comparison to Klopp at Dortmund is completely fair although some people were saying the same about him at Liverpool last season.

 

[Socerer 01]

The argument was that he transformed the club into one capable of making the final. That is obviously completely different to Di Matteo taking over half way through a season and fluking a Champions League win.

The comparison to Klopp at Dortmund is completely fair although some people were saying the same about him at Liverpool last season.

i feel they screwed up more by trying to get something out of a failing squad like you mentioned that needed recycling with two managers that prefer to spend money on proven players instead of sticking to what previously worked for them and the new stadium and pandemic would have screwed them too

 

[Furball]

Ten years on from Fergie, how do we compare modern United to 90s Liverpool?

United are far, far worse.

Liverpool were the top team in the 1980s but I don't think they were ever dominant the way United were in the 1990s, and even with Abramovich in 2003 and Abu Dhabi in 2008, Ferguson was still able to keep Man Utd as top dogs throughout the late 00s and into the early 10s until his retirement.

The footballing landscape Liverpool faced in the 1990s was also completely different; the Heysel ban affects England in terms of being able to attract players (it's really interesting to look at England's 1986 and 1990 squads in terms of players who spent decent chunks of their careers abroad compared to modern day England squads), the best English talent is often going abroad to Serie A which is full of money (Platt goes to Bari in 1991 for £5.5m and Gascoigne goes to Lazio for £8.5m, which is light years ahead of anything English clubs can offer) and even within England I'm pretty sure Man Utd are able to spend more money than Liverpool in the late 80s/early 90s.

Premiership money also hasn't quite kicked in so even Rangers are still a very attractive destination for players compared to top English clubs.

Liverpool were decent in the 1990s but drop off once Man Utd, Arsenal and Blackburn in the early days of the Premier League emerge as forces to be reckoned with.

None of those constraints apply to Man Utd; they've continued to be a commercial juggernaut since Ferguson left despite a relative lack of success, and have outspent pretty much everyone in world football in the last 10 years. United's failings can't be as easily explained away as Liverpool's can in the 1990s, which makes them worse in my book.

Incidentally, has there ever been a period in English top flight history where both Man Utd and Liverpool have been top dogs at the same time? It seems to me that for whatever reason it's typically one or the other, but never both.

 

[Pothas]

There is some stat about United hardly ever winning a league title without Busby or Ferguson isn't there?

 

[Molehill]

Incidentally, has there ever been a period in English top flight history where both Man Utd and Liverpool have been top dogs at the same time? It seems to me that for whatever reason it's typically one or the other, but never both.

Good question. Nearest would be between 1963-1967 where they alternated the 4 Div 1 League Winners between them. Only in the first did they finish 1st and 2nd though, a feat they also did in 87-88.