*Official* England Tour of West Indies 2019

[Arachnodouche]

Curran will amount to no good as a bowler outside England. May as well start grooming him for the top order spot everyone thinks he's preordained for and be content with the support bowling he can provide. Not like Eng couldn't do without some actual talent upstairs.

 

[Woodster]

Curran will amount to no good as a bowler outside England. May as well start grooming him for the top order spot everyone thinks he's preordained for and be content with the support bowling he can provide. Not like Eng couldn't do without some actual talent upstairs.

Not sure I see him becoming a huge top order batting talent personally but maybe I haven't seen enough of him. As we know, lower order runs are one thing, the pressure of actually being a batsman is something else.

 

[Beamer]

If you bowl a team out in the first innings for 77 you are going to have pretty much full control from there on in, providing you don't suffer a similar first innings fate. I'd say England would have been pretty happy after WI's first innings, of course WI then assumed full control thereafter.

I think the reality is we made a good first innings total given the conditions. We battled to put some runs on the board and then bowled extremely well in the first innings, therefore putting ourselves in complete control. My point is we usually wait until we're behind before producing something special. This was a great sign because we did all the right things from the start.

 

[Tom Flint]

Burns
Denly
Bairstow
Root
Buttler +
Stokes
Woakes
Ali
Broad
Leach
Anderson

 

[Beamer]

My Antigua test prediction (slight caveat that Windies haven't named their squad yet). England to win but in a very tight battle, leading to the prospect of a very exciting final test in St Lucia. Broad to take wickets and put our top order under pressure.

Lineups:

Windies:

Braithwaite
Campbell
Hope
Bravo
Chase
Hetmeyer
Dowrich (wk)
Holder (c)
Warrican
Roach
Gabriel

The left arm spinner will come in for Joseph I expect. Last year the pitch had lots of grass on and our seamers ran riot, but that seemed a one off. If it is a new policy, than Joseph will stay. If Gabriel doesn't recover from his toe injury, Oshane Thomas can come in. They must be tempted to bring him in anyway given how badly England played pace at times in the first test. What's stopping them is that he hasn't proven he can still bowl in the 90 mph range in his second and third spells If Dowrich's back is still sore, give Shai Hope the gloves and bring in the spinner anyway.


England:

Jennings
Burns
Bairstow
Root
Stokes
Butler
Foakes
Ali
Broad
Leach
Anderson

Jennings has one test to show he can play pace or he'll be dropped. Foakes moves up one because Moeen deserves to be demoted for his awful batting in the last test. Broad comes in for Curran for extra height and zip, Leach comes in for Rashid to provide more control. Lack of pace in the attack is clearly a problem but at least this will have a little more menace with the inclusion of Broad and control through Leach.

 

[Cow Corner]

It's not that Curran had "one bad game". It's the fact that he bowls 125 kph, with no real height/bounce which means he relies solely on swing which only works in England/New Zealand under cloudy conditions. It's not easy for him to add an extra 10kph so it's actually the potential that's lacking, not just execution issues. His footwork also suggests that he's not good enough to be a pure batsman for England.

Unfortunately once Anderson retires England's bowling stocks will also start to look toothless (which it does already outside of England) without any world class seamer or spinner in the ranks. You can't have that and a shaky top/middle order and purely rely on depth. As much as England's ODI (batting) game has improved, the lack of a world class player to emerge in the last 3 years is a bit worrying. Doesn't help that the likes of Bairstow, Root and Stokes have actually had their game go backwards since 2017 or so.

 

[Woodster]

I think the reality is we made a good first innings total given the conditions. We battled to put some runs on the board and then bowled extremely well in the first innings, therefore putting ourselves in complete control. My point is we usually wait until we're behind before producing something special. This was a great sign because we did all the right things from the start.

I wasn't attempting to play down the achievements of West Indies in that opening Test, they were excellent, and they showed good discipline in that first innings against some very good bowling from Anderson and Stokes. Still don't think it was a minefield and for England to keep them below 300 after the start the WI had was a job well done.

As you say, you were never really behind in the Test by any distance at all, so I take your point.

 

[Tom Flint]

Surely Joseph will play at his home ground?

 

[Stefan9]

This is definitely untrue. 05 Ashes is what he'll always be remembered for but r was genuinely incredible for a good 3 years or so (2004-06 ish) and a serviceable cricketer for the rest. His performance to earn a drawn series in India in 06 is right up there among all round performances I've seen in the country.

Career stats aren't spectacular but they definitely undersell his quality imo. Holder is superb but it's a little much to say he's better than flintoff ever was. I hope he has a better career though, he's much much more likeable.

He only has 2 years were he averages sub 30 with the ball, only averages sub 30 against 2 sides.Only 3 years where he averages 40 and above, only 2 opposition sides where he averages 40 +.

None of his stats over anything but an extremely short period is incredible. He was merely good.

 

[Beamer]

Surely Joseph will play at his home ground?

Our selectors don;t really think of things like that tbh. So I doubt it would matter. Hopefully they will make the decision on the basis of the pitch and not nationality.

 

[Beamer]

He only has 2 years were he averages sub 30 with the ball, only averages sub 30 against 2 sides.Only 3 years where he averages 40 and above, only 2 opposition sides where he averages 40 +.

None of his stats over anything but an extremely short period is incredible. He was merely good.

This. I think Freddie is over-rated because his best performances were exceptional and he created quite a spectacle when he was on (think Ashes 05 over to Ponting for example, which was incredible).

But for him to only have 5 test centuries after 79 tests is woeful considering his reputation. To put that into context, Holder already has 3 after 36 matches and a much higher best test score.

 

[andmark]

There's a risk of forgetting Holder's less memorable performances amongst all this. Like between 2014-16, Holder's bowling average was 41 and his batting average was 28.6. Even if you expand it to January 2018, the batting average is 29 and the bowling average is 38.52. For the talk of Flintoff only being good for short periods, the same can be said for Holder.

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

I dreaded the comparisons. But it's here in full force

 

[andmark]

I dreaded the comparisons. But it's here in full force

Yeah, I know I'm guilty of it, but it's daft. Issues like context etc are valid, but what strikes me at the moment is that Holder hasn't even finished his career. Anything could happen until he retires. He could become good enough for Sobers comparisons or he could drop off.

 

[Woodster]

I think when you of players such as Ponting, Langer, Gilchrist talk about Flintoff was the best (or one of) that they ever faced says more than what his stats say, IMO.

His batting wasn’t of the same standing but he was still useful. Not sure anyone at this point will talk so highly of Holder the batsman or bowler.

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

Yeah, I know I'm guilty of it, but it's daft. Issues like context etc are valid, but what strikes me at the moment is that Holder hasn't even finished his career. Anything could happen until he retires. He could become good enough for Sobers comparisons or he could drop off.

I think the comparison is as ridiculous as Flintoff think England's top 6 would chase down 600+ runs; provided that Holder gets to his double ton.

 

[Beamer]

There's a risk of forgetting Holder's less memorable performances amongst all this. Like between 2014-16, Holder's bowling average was 41 and his batting average was 28.6. Even if you expand it to January 2018, the batting average is 29 and the bowling average is 38.52. For the talk of Flintoff only being good for short periods, the same can be said for Holder.

Good point. Who knows how Jason Holder will end up. I very much expect he will be much better than Freddie but we just don't know. My point is not really to compare the two at this stage but to point out how ridiculous Freddie's comments on Holder were when you consider his career. He clearly thinks he was a lot better than he actually was.

 

[Beamer]

I think when you of players such as Ponting, Langer, Gilchrist talk about Flintoff was the best (or one of) that they ever faced says more than what his stats say, IMO.

His batting wasn’t of the same standing but he was still useful. Not sure anyone at this point will talk so highly of Holder the batsman or bowler.

This is one of crickets debates that really gets me. Experiences over short periods of time render career stats completely pointless according to some. I tend to focus more on stats personally with a bit of aesthetics thrown in.

According to Mark Butcher and Graham Thorpe, Tino Best and Fidel Edwards bowling in 2004 was the fastest and most difficult bowling they had faced until then. I don;t really rate them as bowlers because of that statement based on one series.

Also don't agree on the batting. I think Jason Holder is a technically much better batsman than Freddie ever was and anyone who saw his maiden ton saving a test against England will remember that. He also hit 8 sixes in his innings during the last test which was pretty incredible.

 

[Woodster]

This is one of crickets debates that really gets me. Experiences over short periods of time render career stats completely pointless according to some. I tend to focus more on stats personally with a bit of aesthetics thrown in.

According to Mark Butcher and Graham Thorpe, Tino Best and Fidel Edwards bowling in 2004 was the fastest and most difficult bowling they had faced until then. I don;t really rate them as bowlers because of that statement based on one series.

Also don't agree on the batting. I think Jason Holder is a technically much better batsman than Freddie ever was and anyone who saw his maiden ton saving a test against England will remember that. He also hit 8 sixes in his innings during the last test which was pretty incredible.

I never mentioned Holder’s batting, I was referring to Freddie’s batting in relation to his bowling.

I’m fairly certain the likes of Ponting, Langer, Gilchrist aren’t basing their judgements on a single series where Freddie may have peaked. I’m not disregarding stats at all, I’m saying they don’t always tell the whole story and there was much more to Flintoff than what his stats show.

 

[Tom Flint]

Our selectors don;t really think of things like that tbh. So I doubt it would matter. Hopefully they will make the decision on the basis of the pitch and not nationality.

They definitely shouldn't decide on that basis but think they might as there is a lot of politics involved. Ticket sales amongst locals will be higher if one of their own is playing. They should try to produce a simular pitch and go with 4 seamers and chase again. If they do and we select broad then it will make for a fantastic test