Woodster
International Captain
Completely agree, you can probably add Stokes to that list aswell!
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*Official* England in West Indies 2022
- Thread starter theegyptian
- Start date
Beamer
International Vice-Captain
So I thought I'd share my post series ramblings on both sides, starting with England.
On the face of it, you can look at Root, Trescothick and Colly's post match comments that England played some great cricket on this tour and have some sympathy. They did indeed have the better of the first 2 tests, even without Wood and Robinson. They played a positive brand of cricket to at least try and set something up and scored lots of runs. That's all true.
I do however think they are deluded when you look in detail. In Barbados, for example, England won a critical toss, batted on a road for 2 days and then the ball span for the rest of the match. Despite that, they couldn't force a result.
England's problem has been batting collapses when under pressure or in helpful conditions. That is clearly still an issue. They were 50/4 in Antigua on the only day the ball swung and collapsed in a heap twice on the only sporting pitch in the series. So I don't think they learned anything at all really from a batting perspective.
So if I were an England fan I'd find the managements post match comments nauseating.
Still, I thought there were some positives. Mahmood looks really good to me, he will add something on overseas trips or flat end of summer wickets. Joe Root is still one of the World's best. I thought Stokes bowled superbly in the first 2 tests, and Jack Leach bowled ok.
I thought it also provided some clarity on names that shouldn't be around any longer. Chris Woakes should only play at home. Craig Overton is a rubbish bloke and a very ordinary bowler. He shouldn't be getting many more tests. Fisher has talent and a lovely action but just isn't quite ready yet. I think A team cricket would help him.
Given how good Mahmood looked, I thought the reluctance to throw in Parkinson was very negative. I hope for all you England fans that the new set up will have a more progressive attitude to selection and player development.
On the face of it, you can look at Root, Trescothick and Colly's post match comments that England played some great cricket on this tour and have some sympathy. They did indeed have the better of the first 2 tests, even without Wood and Robinson. They played a positive brand of cricket to at least try and set something up and scored lots of runs. That's all true.
I do however think they are deluded when you look in detail. In Barbados, for example, England won a critical toss, batted on a road for 2 days and then the ball span for the rest of the match. Despite that, they couldn't force a result.
England's problem has been batting collapses when under pressure or in helpful conditions. That is clearly still an issue. They were 50/4 in Antigua on the only day the ball swung and collapsed in a heap twice on the only sporting pitch in the series. So I don't think they learned anything at all really from a batting perspective.
So if I were an England fan I'd find the managements post match comments nauseating.
Still, I thought there were some positives. Mahmood looks really good to me, he will add something on overseas trips or flat end of summer wickets. Joe Root is still one of the World's best. I thought Stokes bowled superbly in the first 2 tests, and Jack Leach bowled ok.
I thought it also provided some clarity on names that shouldn't be around any longer. Chris Woakes should only play at home. Craig Overton is a rubbish bloke and a very ordinary bowler. He shouldn't be getting many more tests. Fisher has talent and a lovely action but just isn't quite ready yet. I think A team cricket would help him.
Given how good Mahmood looked, I thought the reluctance to throw in Parkinson was very negative. I hope for all you England fans that the new set up will have a more progressive attitude to selection and player development.
Beamer
International Vice-Captain
As for the West Indies, I'm not going to go too OTT on this victory.
The main positive was the resilience and genuine team spirit showed by the team throughout the series. It's a team built in Kraigg's image that's for sure. It's also quite something that we won despite Holder having a terrible series, which is extremely rare.
The bowling attack is very good at home and got it done pretty easily on the only helpful pitch they were given. I thought Alzarri showed some good signs in this series. He's not there yet, but he had a clear role as the enforcer and was regularly up at 90mph. He's suffered in the past from not knowing what his role is, so this was progress. Mayers also adds a new dimension to the attack, especially on helpful wickets.
The negative was a lack of anything different on two roads. Permaul was either terrible or pretty average and there was no 150kph plus option to take the pitch out of the equation.
On the batting side, Josh Da Silva continues to look the business. He can't bat at 8 for long surely? Kraigg now looks back to peak form, which is huge for us. Bonner is still solid, though I want to see him score runs when the ball bounces.
However, Brooks and Campbell were dreadful and are using up two vital spots in the lineup. Blackwood scored an important hundred but didn't always look convincing either.
To progress this side on from occasional series wins at home and the odd burgled test away from home to a team that genuinely competes, we need a couple of proper batsmen and a spinner.
The main positive was the resilience and genuine team spirit showed by the team throughout the series. It's a team built in Kraigg's image that's for sure. It's also quite something that we won despite Holder having a terrible series, which is extremely rare.
The bowling attack is very good at home and got it done pretty easily on the only helpful pitch they were given. I thought Alzarri showed some good signs in this series. He's not there yet, but he had a clear role as the enforcer and was regularly up at 90mph. He's suffered in the past from not knowing what his role is, so this was progress. Mayers also adds a new dimension to the attack, especially on helpful wickets.
The negative was a lack of anything different on two roads. Permaul was either terrible or pretty average and there was no 150kph plus option to take the pitch out of the equation.
On the batting side, Josh Da Silva continues to look the business. He can't bat at 8 for long surely? Kraigg now looks back to peak form, which is huge for us. Bonner is still solid, though I want to see him score runs when the ball bounces.
However, Brooks and Campbell were dreadful and are using up two vital spots in the lineup. Blackwood scored an important hundred but didn't always look convincing either.
To progress this side on from occasional series wins at home and the odd burgled test away from home to a team that genuinely competes, we need a couple of proper batsmen and a spinner.
Adders
Cricketer Of The Year
**** you
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https://www.theguardian.com/sport/b...ter-than-supporting-role-in-england-melodrama
One for @Beamer.
One series win in the West Indies in the last 54 years is a hell of a stat. It really doesn't align with how the English establishment approach these tours. You get the impression they wouldn't consider winning in the Caribbean an achievement at all, and yet almost no English cricketers have done it.
One for @Beamer.
One series win in the West Indies in the last 54 years is a hell of a stat. It really doesn't align with how the English establishment approach these tours. You get the impression they wouldn't consider winning in the Caribbean an achievement at all, and yet almost no English cricketers have done it.
Aritro
International Regular
Any ideas on players who could be those proper batsmen and a spinner?
Hety getting his **** together would help. So would Pooran having a proper crack at red ball but that's a pipe dream.
Beamer
International Vice-Captain
Thanks for sharing, that pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter. It's weird how complacent English cricket establishment seems to be about touring the Caribbean. Maybe they'll get it in 50 years time?
SillyCowCorner1
Moooo
This is a tough one.
A proper batsman in the West Indies is an oxymoron.
Looking at what we have, I am gonna say Akeal Hosein.
Nintendo
Cricketer Of The Year
You don't rate motie anymore?
SillyCowCorner1
Moooo
Yes I do, highly as an SLA…but I was replying to a question that asks for the closest thing to a proper batsman + spinner.
Akeal has a century in FC cricket
Beamer
International Vice-Captain
Yeah I was just thinking of my answer to Artiro's question as it's not an easy one on the batting side. I think I've posted this before, but I think Haynes and Sarwan have three options basically, none of which are ideal:
- Stick with the current group and the principle that West Indian batsmen tend to mature fairly late. Pray that Campbell and Brooks suddenly become good enough in their late 20's/early 30's and have 5 or 6 good years of test cricket left in them. If they don't perform, simply replace them with someone else from the FC system who barely averages 30 and hope they somehow come good.
- Pick the most talented batsmen from the soon to be restarted academy system, who either have little or no FC exposure or track records to call on. Use Haynes, Sarwan's and Simmons experience to parachute in young players they think have the technical and mental traits to succeed at test level and give them a run. Random names that this could apply to would be Keegan Simmons (opener), Keacy Carty (middle order), Teddy Bishop, Ackeem Auguste and Kevin Wickham from the last Under 19 batch.
- Give the most talented white ball players a test run and see how it goes. So let Evin Lewis open and bring Pooran and Hety into the middle order.
Beamer
International Vice-Captain
I was thinking about this the other day. If Permaul continues to struggle, Akeal is not a bad option. He has a decent FC record and we know from white ball cricket that he turns the ball and has the mentality to succeed in international cricket.
CricAddict
Cricketer Of The Year
You guys just won a series. This is not the time to crib ?
Aritro
International Regular
It wasn't who's the best individual who can bowl spin and bat, I was referring to Beamer saying you need proper batsmen and a spinner. Akeal is a good shout anyway, guy isn't the worst bowler
Aritro
International Regular
Glad to hear that there was an academy program that's about to recommence. At least we can identify the absence of it for the very poor batsmen who are around. I've got Bishop and Auguste's names on my radar, but they really would be better off playing some first class cricket at least for a while. We used to do the "parachute talented youngsters in" thing with Bangladesh and they just took years and years to develop while they failed at the top level, and never got any experience building big innings and staying out there for lengthy periods. It's worthwhile getting some 150s and 200s under your belt playing even a poor standard of FC cricket IMO.
I think 3 would be a good option if those players had any interest in playing some first class and giving red ball cricket a proper go. I refuse to believe players as good as Lewis and Pooran can't retool their games and succeed in test cricket if they put some work into it.
CricAddict
Cricketer Of The Year
Yeah Akeal is good. I hope he is given a go in tests as well.
SillyCowCorner1
Moooo
Ahhh, I lost the essence of that question.
I was going for an all out all arounder
Beamer
International Vice-Captain
It's England at home. I've given up getting too excited when we beat them tbh. They always underestimate us, we get irritated, the players try really hard and usually win. We also have good bowlers and England can't bat. I find it doesn't always tell us much about what happens next unfortuantely.
If India toured West Indies tomorrow Bumrah would still take 8/12 or something mad. Nortje would still bounce us out. Shaheen would swing out our top order without much fuss. Etc etc.
Beamer
International Vice-Captain
I completely agree with you tbh, ideally all the academy players need some more FC cricket, A cricket and big scores. My main hope is that for next years FC competition they will introduce an academy XI or similar so all these players have guaranteed matches. You can't trust our various territories not to pick journeymen just to win the tournament, they have been doing that for years.
I would choose option 3 personally and see if it works. I don't see what we have to lose. By placing demands on them playing full FC seasons etc we are making it difficuly for them given the crazy whiteball schedule.