**Official** England in The West Indies

[Adamc]

I would argue that the reason the West Indians do bat so poorly is that each one of them is trying to play flashily, impress the crowd and score as quickly as possible in tests, which is counterproductive and exactly what the team doesn't need.

Ridiculous. Have you ever seen Chanderpaul, Ganga, Jacobs, Sarwan or Lara bat?

That or they have no talent or ability, which still does nothing to disprove my claim.

Even moreso. Have you ever seen Lara, Gayle, Sarwan, Chanderpaul or Ganga bat?

 

[luckyeddie]

He probably has an offensive odor.

No, that'd keep the close fielders away

 

[tooextracool]

* Wonders why someone who gets to 50 or 60 so often should be criticised *

look if butcher scored 50-60s on wickets that were doing a bit(as he did in the 1st 3 tests)then its alright. but for someone to score 50-60s on flat tracks is just a waste. its one of the reasons why we lost in australia...because bar vaughan no one seemed to get the big ones and on the more batsman friendly tracks it will cost us again.and whats even more depressing is the manner in which he gets himself out, he throws it away with a poor stroke.for me butcher has the most potential amongst all the batsmen(bar vaughan) yet he averages the least out of all of them.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

But let's move on, as you suggested.

Indeed. Who's the pick for the ODI series?
I actually think the West Indies have the advantage. The ARG pitch brough a brick wall to the English juggernaut and the pitches from now on will likely be flat with consistent bounce. Add to the fact the main English batsmen in the Tests - Butcher, Hussain and Thorpe are returning home, the unproven Vaughan is now the best batsman in the side (aside from Collingwood perhaps). IMO the bowling looks England's strength, but the middle order batting looks largely inexperienced at international level. On the other hand, the West Indies have potential to field a pretty decent team, with batting down to #8.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

but for someone to score 50-60s on flat tracks is just a waste.

To his defence, it was a good exhibition of reverse swing which got him in the first innings.

 

[Lions81]

Indeed. Who's the pick for the ODI series?
I actually think the West Indies have the advantage. The ARG pitch brough a brick wall to the English juggernaut and the pitches from now on will likely be flat with consistent bounce. Add to the fact the main English batsmen in the Tests - Butcher, Hussain and Thorpe are returning home, the unproven Vaughan is now the best batsman in the side (aside from Collingwood perhaps). IMO the bowling looks England's strength, but the middle order batting looks largely inexperienced at international level. On the other hand, the West Indies have potential to field a pretty decent team, with batting down to #8.

No question West Indies for me. They'll be riding high on Lara's 400, and England's vaunted bowlers must wonder if they're just "bowler's pitch bullies". (Thanks tooextracool).

Gayle is one of top ODI openers in the world in my opinion. Remember that over at the close of play from Test 3 when Harmison was hit for three consecutive boundaries before he was clean bowled? I expect more of that except, without the clean bowled part.

But my only concern is that they've rested Edwards, Best and the real find of the tour, Collins. They're very young, shouldn't they be able to handle this kind of workload? I suppose the thinking is let's keep them fresh for the return tour, but that's a ways off. But still, in ODIs, batting is the name of the game, and West Indies are a much better batting lineup than England.
5-2 Windies.

 

[SpaceMonkey]

Lara out of the first 2 one dayers...thats gonna be a big blow considering his confidence must be sky high atm.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

But my only concern is that they've rested Edwards, Best and the real find of the tour, Collins. They're very young, shouldn't they be able to handle this kind of workload? I suppose the thinking is let's keep them fresh for the return tour, but that's a ways off. But still, in ODIs, batting is the name of the game, and West Indies are a much better batting lineup than England.
5-2 Windies.

On the contrary, the younger bowlers are generally more likely to sustain stress fractures etc., especially West Indian fast bowlers. Corey Collymore had two.

 

[marc71178]

He probably has an offensive odor.

And that would also explain his non-selection in ODI's

The fabric in the coloured shirts would only magnify it, hence the selectors never pick him!

 

[tooextracool]

But my only concern is that they've rested Edwards, Best and the real find of the tour, Collins. They're very young, shouldn't they be able to handle this kind of workload? I suppose the thinking is let's keep them fresh for the return tour, but that's a ways off. But still, in ODIs, batting is the name of the game, and West Indies are a much better batting lineup than England.
5-2 Windies.

you have got to be kidding!?5-2 to a windies side without best,edwards,collins and lara for the first 2 ODIs??and tell me how is the WI batting lineup of chanderpaul,gayle,hinds,smith,sarwan and powell so much better than englands?have u been partying and drinking in the stands too??
for me its going to 4-3 either way but england start of favourites with a potent attack of anderson,gough and flintoff

 

[marc71178]

Perhaps, but I doubt Cricinfo would face a libel lawsuit by printing false statements, so my statement that they were drinking and partying is true.

All very well, but Cricinfo never put that, they said that

Immediately after the match, four of the West Indian squad were reportedly seen in one of the stands drinking and partying. The four were named in local media reports as allegedly being Ramnaresh Sarwan, the West Indies vice-captain, Chris Gayle, Tino Best and Adam Sanford. Local reports claim they were seen on the Mound,* a popular grass bank at the Blue Mountains End of the ground, with its own beach and swimming pool

Now, there's no case for libel there!

 

[Swervy]

you have got to be kidding!?5-2 to a windies side without best,edwards,collins and lara for the first 2 ODIs??and tell me how is the WI batting lineup of chanderpaul,gayle,hinds,smith,sarwan and powell so much better than englands?have u been partying and drinking in the stands too??
for me its going to 4-3 either way but england start of favourites with a potent attack of anderson,gough and flintoff

got to agree there...cant see how WI can be considered outright favourites for the ODI's, I would go for 4-3 to either one of the teams.

Anderson,Gough, and Flintoff make up a pretty awesome one day bowling trio

 

[marc71178]

Indeed. Who's the pick for the ODI series?
I actually think the West Indies have the advantage.

So did I till I saw no BCL for the first 2 games - big blow that is.

 

[marc71178]

its one of the reasons why we lost in australia.

And coming up against one of the best sides in history is incidental to that is it?

for me butcher has the most potential amongst all the batsmen(bar vaughan) yet he averages the least out of all of them.

A lot of that is due to his early, unsuccessful, career.

Up to 1999/2000 (when dropped) - 27 matches - 1253 runs @ 25.06 - 2 tons, 2 fifties, 5 ducks in 51 innings
2001 onwards - 39 matches - 2833 runs @ 43.58 - 6 tons, 17 fifties, 4 ducks in 70 innings

 

[Tom Halsey]

I think England are favourites - WI are a much inproved ODI side, but I can't see their 'brilliant' batting is going to hit England all over the place, with Freddie (a very good OD bowler) Goughie (the same) and Jimmy (the same, again).

I wonder if Harmy will play. With his new found accuracy, I doubt they will score off him too easily either.

 

[tooextracool]

And coming up against one of the best sides in history is incidental to that is it?

marc why do u think the aussies are the best side in the world?(not history u are quite mistaken). langer,waugh,hayden arent that talented but when they get starts they go on to score big.....the difference between the 2 teams in that series(apart from the bowling) is that england had hussain scoring 50s,butcher scoring 60s, trescothick scoring 30s and crawley/key scoring 40s while australia had hayden scoring 150s,ponting scoring 150s,martyn scoring 100s,langer scoring 200s. the fact is when england did get big scores....in the last test, vaughan,butcher and hussain all scored big.... they won.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

With Lara in the side I'd consider the West Indies favourites, but to win the series we need to at least split the first two ODI's. Sarwan and Gayle are both outstanding ODI players and Chanderpaul has come very good of late, especially opening the batting. Powell batted well in South Africa, but it remains to be seen whether he can repeat. Dwayne Smith is useless. Ryan Hinds has great technique and with some confidence could go far.

Sylvester Joseph has potential but has Powell/Smith syndrome - lack of shot selection. Will be interesting to see how he goes.

Dwayne Bravo is one to watch out for with the ball. I'm not sold on his batting as yet, but with the ball he's been quite impressive in taking wickets almost everytime he comes on to bowl. He's also a brilliant fielder.

Ian Bradshaw is a useful lower order batsman and a Pedro Collins type left-arm seamer. He's a bit more accurate more often than Collins though.

Ravi Rampaul has really impressed me in his ODI career to date. I didn't like the idea of him being exposed in South Africa, but I have warmed to it as he is a very determined bowler and has a good yorker.

Corey Collymore will be better in the ODI game than he was in the Tests results-wise. He was consistently beating the bat and getting short edges in the Tests, but it's his economy that will come into play now.

Mervyn Dillon is a wildcard. He certainly has a lot to prove, but I haven't seen him play in about a month, when he scored 60odd and took 8 for 30odd in a innings for Queen's Park.

The expected tactic is that the West Indies will see how they go in the first three games and call in the pace if they need to after that (ie Edwards, Best. Lawson perhaps?). It should be a tight series, but we'll see how it goes.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

marc why do u think the aussies are the best side in the world?(not history u are quite mistaken). langer,waugh,hayden arent that talented but when they get starts they go on to score big.....the difference between the 2 teams in that series(apart from the bowling) is that england had hussain scoring 50s,butcher scoring 60s, trescothick scoring 30s and crawley/key scoring 40s while australia had hayden scoring 150s,ponting scoring 150s,martyn scoring 100s,langer scoring 200s. the fact is when england did get big scores....in the last test, vaughan,butcher and hussain all scored big.... they won.

Australia are the best side in the world because they work on their game.

That said, Hayden, Langer and Waugh are all very talented batsmen.

England was outplayed and beaten because they weren't the better team by a long shot.

 

[marc71178]

marc why do u think the aussies are the best side in the world?(not history u are quite mistaken).

Because quite simply, they are head and shoulders above any other side.

langer,waugh,hayden arent that talented but when they get starts they go on to score big.

So what is that if it isn't talent then?

Career averages of the high 40's and above don't arrive by chance.

....the difference between the 2 teams in that series(apart from the bowling) is that england had hussain scoring 50s,butcher scoring 60s, trescothick scoring 30s and crawley/key scoring 40s while australia had hayden scoring 150s,ponting scoring 150s,martyn scoring 100s,langer scoring 200s. the fact is when england did get big scores....in the last test, vaughan,butcher and hussain all scored big.... they won.

Yes, and I wonder if the fact that ours scored so many fewer is because of the bowling?

the fact is when england did get big scores....in the last test, vaughan,butcher and hussain all scored big.... they won.

In the last Test I do believe that the Australian attack was somewhat lacking in the fact that McGrath and Warne were absent - suddenly we scored some runs - spot the coincidence!

 

[tooextracool]

Because quite simply, they are head and shoulders above any other side.

yes but not in the history of the game as their inability to beat india both home and away shows. IMO best side in the history of the game was the WI side of the late 70s and early 80s

So what is that if it isn't talent then?

Career averages of the high 40's and above don't arrive by chance.

im surprised that u think that high averages have everything to do with talent. if that were the case flintoff and butcher would be averaging in the high 50s and players like gary kirsten and mark richardson in the low 30s. talent is not the only thing that makes a player....theres mental toughness,concentration,shot selection,preparation etc. look even now it is universally regarded that mark waugh had more talent than steve waugh,and yet mark waugh averaged 10 runs less than steve.

Yes, and I wonder if the fact that ours scored so many fewer is because of the bowling?

our bowling was no worse than indias bowling in australia....yet india nearly pulled off a victory down under.