*Official* England in South Africa

[GIMH]

 

[Prince EWS]

The 3 times Davies bowl live at a ground or TV are:

- Blackpool 07. Funny thing about this game i remember laughing at the fact Ottis Gibson was baggin wickets for fun that season & he was way below internaitonal quality & he for sure looked better than Davies.

- Durham's winning the DIV 12009 & 2008. In the last 2-3 years, the key 4-day finals where the likey victor will win has been shown on sky since usally as other will testify only doemstic limited over matches are shown..

What's actually quite notable about those three games is the fact that Davies didn't take a bag of wickets. Which is quite uncharacteristic for him. You didn't see a normal Davies day at the office, in other words.

 

[Furball]

All FC form in England does not always equal international success. Some people wish not accept this hardcore fact.

Point out where anyone has said Davies is guaranteed to be a success.

 

[aussie]

It's also possible that the selectors have seen him play on a number of times, called him into development squads and the like and seen him in training etc. and decided he is actually worth a call up.


Mind you, that's far too much like what's actually happened to be right, clearly you know a lot more about him on your limited (and dare I say it fabricated) evidence.

Oh yes those selectors clearly have proven themseleves over the years to be so astute with there selections right?. So us fans have to right to question them, but rather back all decisions...

Plus if you think i'm lying about where i saw him, just say it geez. This is not interrogation i dont have any blows to collect

What's actually quite notable about those three games is the fact that Davies didn't take a bag of wickets. Which is quite uncharacteristic of him. You didn't see a normal Davies day at the office, in other words.

Yea probably because he wasn't playing at Chester-le-Street (spell check) i dare say..

Point out where anyone has said Davies is guaranteed to be a success.

None. But if i am being criticized for writing Davies off from early a clock, so should most of you for giving him & the ENG selectors such a HUGE benefit of the doubt & not be concerned AT ALL that his selection, shows the sad state of our fast bowling stocks compared to other top 8 sides.

It very similar to when Wright was selected selected in the test squad. Hardly anybody here was up him arms condemning his selection..

 

[Jarquis]

No, quite a few people were worried about the idea of playing Test cricket for England as that does show how little depth we have.
The fact that you can't understand why we're not enraged that a worse bowler wasn't picked rather than our most successful county bowler is a little bizarre.

 

[aussie]

My point is watching a whole three games or whatever Aussie managed...hmm

Yea i saw for example Joe Denly only ONCE in a domestic one-day game in 2008 on TV. When he was smashing Harmison & scored a hundred & i reckoned he would have opened for ENG in ODIs & he has.

I have seen young ENG batsman Sam Northeast bat ONCE in a under-19 match & i'd put my head on block to say he will be a future player for ENG.

 

[marc71178]

Oh yes those selectors clearly have proven themseleves over the years to be so astute with there selections right?. So us fans have to right to question them, but rather back all decisions...

I'd back them every time when compared to the judgement of someone who's not seen anywhere near as much of the player in action or in training.

It very similar to when Wright was selected selected in the test squad. Hardly anybody here was up him arms condemning his selection..

Maybe because people can actually see the logic behind the selection?

 

[aussie]

No, quite a few people were worried about the idea of playing Test cricket for England as that does show how little depth we have.
The fact that you can't understand why we're not enraged that a worse bowler wasn't picked rather than our most successful county bowler is a little bizarre.

Davies may be better than Bresnan by domestic standards (which doesn't mean much). But based on seeing both, i would back Bresnan to have more of an effect in international cricket & vs SA than Davies for sure.

I have alreadly explained why i believe Harmo should have been called up. Some/most wish not to agree fine. But if we get a bouncy deck & Jo'burg & Durban as i really think will happen based on evidence this year & tall bowler like M Morkel for eg runs through us, it wont be good..

 

[aussie]

I'd back them every time when compared to the judgement of someone who's not seen anywhere near as much of the player in action or in training.

You dont need to back my judgement. Judge the selectors based on past selections who have:

- Picked Amjad Khan in a test
- Picked Pattinson in a test
- Dropped Hoggard stupidly
- recalled Mahmood to the ODI side
- Picked Key in T20 WC squad
- Dropped Shah from the ODI & T20 team totally & recalled Cook

Really i dont need to go on, since this is just in the last year alone...Thats the judgement you backing everytime???

Maybe because people can actually see the logic behind the selection?

Haaa, this logic i need to hear ASAP..

 

[Uppercut]

Who?

Mitchell McClenaghan.

According to him, he
-is fantastically accurate, and didn't bowl a single bad ball in the entire game
-gets good bounce and carry through to the keeper, although the pitch was very slow so he couldn't judge how fast he is
-always bowls to a plan, very patiently, and is very difficult to bat against- almost impossible to score runs from

I think someone may have deleted the relevant thread.

No worries. I wondered whether you perhaps meant 2008 at OT (his first ever FC game there) where he took 7-33 and 2-44.

LOL.

 

[zaremba]

The last quality ones being Bedser & Appleyard. Medium pacers are an extinct breed

Well they will be if they never get picked despite outstanding records!

Anyway, Chamida Vaas, Glenn McGrath (the 80mph years), Matthew Hoggard were all successful as medium pacers.

 

[aussie]

Well they will be if they never get picked despite outstanding records!

No. They are extinct because of lack of uncovered pitches, such bowlers would not last on the flat wickets of today. His effect would come on a green top in early May in England or whenever else it gets ovecast.

Anyway, Chamida Vaas, Glenn McGrath (the 80mph years), Matthew Hoggard were all successful as medium pacers.

Haa na. None of those bowlers where as slow as Davies, he is Ealham/Larsen/Tim Murtagh/B Strang/John Lewis pace. He would reach 80 mph at his fastest ball at best.

McGrath was never that slow during the back end of his international days either, he was still capable of bowling as high as 85 mph in the 06/07 Ashes & 07 WC. Maybe now in those wild T20 games he is playing in the IPL.

Vaas at the back of his career yea he was Davies speed (which is when he was bowling crap BTW). But at his peak he was much faster.

Same thing goes for Hoggard, never that slow at his best.

 

[Jarquis]

For how long was Vaas crap out of interest?

 

[BoyBrumby]

Wish Davies well and genuinely hope he does make a go of it; bloke's had a really rough trot of injuries.

Reserving judgement on whether he'll make a go of it at test level tho. I've only ever seen him bowl once on Sky (limited overs not really his bag one suspects) and he got absolutely carted. His namesake, the (then) Worcestershire stumper Steven, was particularly brutal. Bowled around the 77-80mph mark and (far be it from me to demur from the verdict of someone who has played against him) didn't seem to get the carry of a Gus Fraser or Martin Bicknell. Jon Lewis is the name I keep coming back to.

From memory the Durham keeper didn't stand up, but it wouldn't surprise me if he might on occasions. Could any regular Durham watchers confirm if this is the case?

 

[aussie]

For how long was Vaas crap out of interest?

For the last year to 18 months or so at least. Was hardly ever bowling at 125 kmp, was bowling at Mascarenhas pace. Shadow of his great self. Played his last ODIs/T20 in 08 & 07 respectively.

 

[Jarquis]

For the last year to 18 months or so at least. Was hardly ever bowling at 125 kmp, was bowling at Mascarenhas pace. Shadow of his great self. Played his last ODIs/T20 in 08 & 07 respectively.

Lets take 01 Jan 2008 as the cut off date then. In that period Vaas managed 24 wickets @ 31.5, Including 12 wickets @ 19.75 on the flat West Indian pitches that you've spoken of.

In the same time period Harmison has 15 wickets @ 43.86 (Having played 7 games to Vaas's 9). That includes a brilliant 6 wickets at 59.66 away from home.

I know you never said Harmison was better than Vaas, not am I saying that Davies is as good as Vaas. Just the fact that Vaas/Davies operate at a lower speed doesn't automatically mean they're less likely to have success than your precious Harmison.

 

[Pothas]

Wish Davies well and genuinely hope he does make a go of it; bloke's had a really rough trot of injuries.

Reserving judgement on whether he'll make a go of it at test level tho. I've only ever seen him bowl once on Sky (limited overs not really his bag one suspects) and he got absolutely carted. His namesake, the (then) Worcestershire stumper Steven, was particularly brutal. Bowled around the 77-80mph mark and (far be it from me to demur from the verdict of someone who has played against him) didn't seem to get the carry of a Gus Fraser or Martin Bicknell. Jon Lewis is the name I keep coming back to.

From memory the Durham keeper didn't stand up, but it wouldn't surprise me if he might on occasions. Could any regular Durham watchers confirm if this is the case?

Saw him at the Rose Bowl last season and Mustard stood up to him for a while, but to be fair that was one of the slowest pitches you are ever likely to see, Harmison and Plunkett looked just as unlikely to get anything out it. Bowled very tighlty im that match but was impossible to really judge anything as the pitch offered very little.

 

[zaremba]

No. They are extinct because of lack of uncovered pitches, such bowlers would not last on the flat wickets of today. His effect would come on a green top in early May in England or whenever else it gets ovecast.

I don't think there's any suggestion that he's only succeeded on green tops or in May or in overcast conditions, although clearly those are conditions that would tend to favour him. And I hardly need to mention that he's played all his cricket on "the flat pitches of today" rather than a series of grassy minefields.

Anyhow old fruit we shall see how he gets on. I don't have any certainty that he will succeed, nobody does, but I have no doubt whatsoever that he has fully earned a chance.

 

[aussie]

Lets take 01 Jan 2008 as the cut off date then. In that period Vaas managed 24 wickets @ 31.5, Including 12 wickets @ 19.75 on the flat West Indian pitches that you've spoken of.

.

Well for one the WI pitches which SRI had in 08 weren't as flat as what we had this winter. At least in Guyana the pitch crumbled on the last day, outside of the Jamaica test, we were playing on concrete.

His test performance vs WI (5 wicket haul in Guyana) was his last creditable test performance. The man clearly has been in decline since then, since SRI have not played in consistently over the past 12 months in either format.

In the same time period Harmison has 15 wickets @ 43.86 (Having played 7 games to Vaas's 9). That includes a brilliant 6 wickets at 59.66 away from home.

So. Its quite obvious that given Harmison style he was never going to bowl well on flat pitches, thus his performances in IND & WI winter gone are highly irrelevant.

I know you never said Harmison was better than Vaas, not am I saying that Davies is as good as Vaas. Just the fact that Vaas/Davies operate at a lower speed doesn't automatically mean they're less likely to have success than your precious Harmison.

*Sighs*. I definately have been typing to deaf ears with regards to reason i think Harmo should have toured SA for the upcoming test.

- Firstly comparing the speeds of Vaas & Davies is like comparing apples to oranges. Vaas has FARRRRR more skills as bowler even at the back end of his career. Davies couldn't have taken 5 wickets on flat Guyana deck like what Vass did in 08.

- Secondly Harmo is not precious to me. I am not fan of his, but with Flintoff out our bowling attack lacks venom, if Freddie wasn't gone i wouldn't have any time with Harmo. But it is clear the pitches in SA ALLLL year (especially in Jo'Burg & Durban) have shown that they would be tailor made for Harmo's style.

Harmison since he fell of his 7 test 2004 haitus & became the frustration of England. One that that has ALWAYS remained consistent is his ability to look dangerous on pitch offering bounce.

- The Oval 04 (after have a dry test series vs WI, found his mojo in this bouncy deck)

- Lord's 05 (then he fell of for the rest of the Ashes)

- His spell to dismiss Langer @ Oval 05

- Manchester 06 (only bouncy deck of the series)

- Peth 06 (first innings on the first day, his best spell of that series)

- Oval 08 vs SA (really troubled the Saffies)

- Leeds 09 (looked sharp on the bounciest wicket of the Ashes)

Do you see what i'm saying now???

 

[marc71178]

.
Do you see what i'm saying now???

Well you clearly don't as in one sentence the Guyana pitch was helpful for bowlers, then later on it was flat.

Did Sehwag bat on it in the interim?