***Official*** England in Pakistan

[aussie]

antigua for the first couple of days had plenty of seam movement.

you sure TEC because to me it was just like the Oval pitch.

 

[LongHopCassidy]

just because someone has a high overall average it doesnt mean that they succeeded in conditions that assisted pace bowlers. hes now played against seam and swing plenty of times during his career, enough to be able to say conclusively that hayden cant play against it.

That's harsh. Mark Taylor repeatedly dominated teams bristling with quality bowlers (Malcolm, Donald in his prime, Ambrose, Walsh, Wasim, Waqar et cetera) before his form collapse in 96, and again in Pakistan in 99. By your reasoning, though, you would classify him to be a poor player of pace because of his slump. Instead of being 'found out', can't we just accept that maybe Hayden's having a mediocre run?

 

[LongHopCassidy]

antigua for the first couple of days had plenty of seam movement.
after that it turned into the traditional antigua wicket and got flatter to bat on as the days went by.

Dross. The last two Tests there produced a 400* and a 317 against highly competent bowling attacks.

 

[tooextracool]

you sure TEC because to me it was just like the Oval pitch.

nope it wasnt, otherwise we wouldnt have seen lawson take 7/78 and both sides getting dismissed for 240.

 

[tooextracool]

By your reasoning, though, you would classify him to be a poor player of pace because of his slump. Instead of being 'found out', can't we just accept that maybe Hayden's having a mediocre run?

except that mark taylor proved himself before his slump while matthew hayden never did?
and matt haydens technique simply didnt look good enough to succeed against seam and swing while taylors did. not to mention the fact that hayden wasnt out of form in this series, and the fact that he scored prolifically during the warm up games proves that.

 

[tooextracool]

Dross. The last two Tests there produced a 400* and a 317 against highly competent bowling attacks.

no i meant that the last 3 days of that test match were exactly like the antigua wickets we've seen off late. and incase you didnt notice that involved the highest 4th inning run chase in the history of test cricket.

 

[marc71178]

Instead of being 'found out', can't we just accept that maybe Hayden's having a mediocre run?

Except this is the second such run in similar conditions, conditions he's not really faced at any other point.

 

[Pratters]

probably if you've watched them.
or really even if you read reports about them.

TEC really you cant prove any way that there was no support of swing or cloud cover in any of the matches of the 4 series. Clearly there would have been a few tests/sessions where Hayden showed adequacy.

 

[Pratters]

The onus is on you to show that those runs came in seaming conditions against great (or even good) seam bowling - something which you're clearly unable to do.

When you cant prove the conditions werent seaming you put the onus on me. Smart thing that.

 

[Pratters]

out of all those games only once did he pass 50, and its not particularly surprising that it happened at basin reserve.

As I said, if he scores - you will put it down to his weakness not being exposed and when he gets out it is due to his weakness.

So you and Marc have a right to your opinions but sorry I dont buy it from what I have seen of Hayden.

 

[marc71178]

So in spite of more than one person providing the evidence, you insist it's wrong.

 

[Pratters]

So in spite of more than one person providing the evidence, you insist it's wrong.

Just for an anology an example of two series against 4 (there have been other good and poor series in his career).

Also more than one person also believes it to be nothing more than a bad run in international level.

 

[marc71178]

And what evidence have they provided?

Funny how they can't give a list of him making runs inspite of the conditions...

 

[Pratters]

And what evidence have they provided?

First you give the logic of more than one person saying some thing so it being right. So when I state the same you ask for evidence. Shows how the more than one person theory isnt pretty good and the futility of you bringing it up.

Funny how they can't give a list of him making runs inspite of the conditions...

So you think all the runs Hayden has scored in his career have only been in favourable conditions. No prizes for guessing who is being harsh on Hayden.

 

[tooextracool]

TEC really you cant prove any way that there was no support of swing or cloud cover in any of the matches of the 4 series. Clearly there would have been a few tests/sessions where Hayden showed adequacy.

why? is it a guarantee that someone who averages 50 in test match cricket must be able to score runs when the ball is swinging or seaming? because if thats the case it shows how over reliant people are on averages. if you've watched any cricket in australia in the past few years, you'd know that the ball has very very rarely swung conventionally, and 3 out of the 4 series that you brought up were played in australia.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

yes he did indeed, but you also saw 2 other things:
1) that the ball didnt swing conventionally or reverse anywhere near as much as the last 4 tests.
2) in the first 4 tests he played with the same technique hes played with all his career, therefore i think we can safely say that hes been getting away with that weakness for all of his career until now.

Except that's not how he's played all of his career, which is why he's been such a success in first class and test cricket. Anyone who watched Hayden earlier in his career could tell you that he overcame his technical issues against swing bowling and scored runs against it on many occasions, despite the fact that he ran into such conditions very regularly early on. As his career has progressed he has ran into swing-friendly conditions less and less (just like everyone else) and as such hasn't had to play in them very often, and this series showed quite clearly that his technique is not well suited to facing swing bowling, but that if he concentrates he can indeed play it by returning to the way he did so early in his career.

 

[tooextracool]

As I said, if he scores - you will put it down to his weakness not being exposed and when he gets out it is due to his weakness.

So you and Marc have a right to your opinions but sorry I dont buy it from what I have seen of Hayden.

you dont seem to have an argument really. at the moment all your saying is that i dont think hayden is useless in seaming or swinging conditions because even though ive not watched most of those game, its not possible for the ball to not have swung or seamed in almost all of those.
look at how the facts are against you. first hayden fails not once but twice in england, both times succeeding in one test(same wicket) in the flattest conditions of the series. hayden even goes on to admit that he wasnt out of form in the most recent series, which was glaringly obvious given that he was scoring a bucketload of runs in the warm up games. to make matters worse, his dismissals this series followed the same pattern that would suggest a major technical weakness, which also followed the same pattern in 2001. there is no argument here as far as im concerned, you're only clutching at straws.

 

[tooextracool]

Except that's not how he's played all of his career, which is why he's been such a success in first class and test cricket. Anyone who watched Hayden earlier in his career could tell you that he overcame his technical issues against swing bowling and scored runs against it on many occasions, despite the fact that he ran into such conditions very regularly early on. As his career has progressed he has ran into swing-friendly conditions less and less (just like everyone else) and as such hasn't had to play in them very often, and this series showed quite clearly that his technique is not well suited to facing swing bowling, but that if he concentrates he can indeed play it by returning to the way he did so early in his career.

and theres so much evidence from that game at the oval that he can play swing bowling isnt it? considering that as soon as the ball started to move around a fair bit on the 4th day he was out soon enough? whether or not he was technically good enough to face swing at the domestic level early on in his career is debateable,but whats more important is that since his return 5 years ago, hes never looked capable of playing swing or seam, and thats all that matters.

 

[tooextracool]

Also more than one person also believes it to be nothing more than a bad run in international level.

yes and ironically the player in question is not one of those people who subscribes to this opinion.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

and theres so much evidence from that game at the oval that he can play swing bowling isnt it? considering that as soon as the ball started to move around a fair bit on the 4th day he was out soon enough? whether or not he was technically good enough to face swing at the domestic level early on in his career is debateable,but whats more important is that since his return 5 years ago, hes never looked capable of playing swing or seam, and thats all that matters.

Except that's not true. Hayden isn't a great player of swing, but he can indeed play it well enough to have success as an opening batsman and THAT is all that matters. Swing isn't a zero-sum thing where a certain number of games have swinging conditions and a certain number don't. Take someone like Shoaib Akthar - a bowler Hayden has had a reasonable time against. Shoaib isn't a big swinger of the ball, but he swings it a bit when the ball is new and again when the ball is old in most games that he played. When Hayden scored what is probably the best innings of his career at Sharjah in 2002, Shoaib got the new ball to swing and Hayden survived it. Now, you can argue if you want that on a greentop he's useless, but what relevance does that have if he never plays on them? And, for that matter, given how little he has played in such conditions in his test career, his first class career where he played on them several times a year early on certainly deserves to be taken into account.