**Official** England in New Zealand

[BoyBrumby]

Failures are failures, however long ago they were (and the last time he was a genuine out-and-out failure was indeed 11 years ago). I don't really like the fact that it's almost assumed that Ramprakash if picked now would no longer have the problems he had back in the mid-1990s and to a lesser extent in the late-1990s and early-2000s.

I don't think it is assumed, some people are just of the opinion that his form has been such that he's earned another crack at tests.

Ramprakash has had sensational seasons before now. What he's done in the last 2 seasons is not unprecedented. If you decided to drop him in 2002, there's no sense bringing him back now. Granted, of those who made that decision, only 2 out of 4 remain.

Id like some examples to back the bolded statement up please.

He's wrong; it is. No-one post-WW2 has averaged 100+ in consecutive English FC seasons.

 

[Goughy]

He's wrong; it is. No-one post-WW2 has averaged 100+ in consecutive English FC seasons.

Yeah I know, I was wanting to see with what he could come up with t justify that sentance

 

[Jungle Jumbo]

Andrew Flintoff as a specialist batsman anywhere in FC cricket is a disgrace. I am entirely serious in saying he couldn't cut it now as a specialist batsman in CC Div 2/

Nah, Flintoff could easily hack it as a Championship batsman - definitely in some of the Division 2 sides, anyway. Aggressive players like him are written off quite a lot as poor batsmen technically, yet I reckon he'd destroy a lot of county attacks. Don't forget he's barely played any domestic cricket in the last 4-5 years now and yet he still made runs against world class opposition in Tests. Paul Nixon was batting four for Leicestershire by the end of last season... the standard isn't that high.

 

[Richard]

Yeah I know, I was wanting to see with what he could come up with t justify that sentance

He's wrong; it is. No-one post-WW2 has averaged 100+ in consecutive English FC seasons.

Id like some examples to back the bolded statement up please.

It really isn't wrong, I wasn't referring to the averages as precedented. Ramprakash scored 2258 First-Class runs in 1995, compared to 2278 in 2006 and 2026 in 2007. He didn't average 100+ in consecutive seasons, but that wasn't the unprecedented event I referred to. His scoring runs so prolifically (ie, making 2000) is certainly not something he'd never done before 2006 and 2007.

Also, its such a while since he last played, Id consider any recall as a second career virtually unrelated to the first.

Dangerous, IMO. He's still Mark Ravin Ramprakash. People have had 6 years out of a side and come back pretty much the same before now. That he'd be a different player is not beyond question, certainly, but I'd not go so far as to reckon it'd be more likely than not to be a second career.

 

[ozone]

Dangerous, IMO. He's still Mark Ravin Ramprakash. People have had 6 years out of a side and come back pretty much the same before now. That he'd be a different player is not beyond question, certainly, but I'd not go so far as to reckon it'd be more likely than not to be a second career.

And some have come back and been spectacularly better. A certain left arm seamer who was crap 6 years ago and has come into the team and bowled his guts out demonstrates this quite well.

 

[Richard]

Sidebottom wasn't especially crap, really, there were just 6 or 7 better seamers in Yorkshire than him. Being worse than Gough, Silverwood, Hamilton, White, Hoggard and Hutchison, all very fine bowlers at the time (sadly Hamilton and Hutchison ran into something of a brick-wall) and it was no real disgrace to be lesser than them.

In any case, I really think Sidebottom hasn't changed much as a bowler in the last 3 years at least. Though the cricket-balls have, and that makes a huge difference to how he might have performed at Test level, so I'll say no more on the matter.

 

[ozone]

Putting better bowling down to diferent balls...
I'm sorry, but it didn't make Hoggard swing the ball any more and there have been no sudden fantastic seamers on the scene who suddenly swung the ball miles so why has it especially affected Sidebottom.

Although I concede, there were an unusual number of pretty decent seamers in Yorkshire at the time.

 

[Jamee999]

Kev, what about Chris Jordan for that fourth seam spot in your Lions team?

 

[Goughy]

Although I concede, there were an unusual number of pretty decent seamers in Yorkshire at the time.

Annoyingly all at the time I was trying to make it

Kev, what about Chris Jordan for that fourth seam spot in your Lions team?

He is West Indian isnt he? Ive never seen him play and I was discussing last year with people on here that he is highly thought of but hadnt seen any playing time.

Last season was good for him. If he is avaiable for England and is as promising as made out, then Id have no issue with that selection for the Lions.

 

[Richard]

Putting better bowling down to diferent balls...
I'm sorry, but it didn't make Hoggard swing the ball any more and there have been no sudden fantastic seamers on the scene who suddenly swung the ball miles so why has it especially affected Sidebottom.

Hoggard hasn't swung the ball that much between 2001 and 2006, though, at least compared to how previous bowlers had - I honestly believe that had the balls been like those that were used in the 1990s and 2000 Hoggard's Test record in England would be better than Phillip DeFreitas', possibly much better.

The cricket-balls used between 2001 and 2006 were pathetic - it was really, really difficult to swing them, and scores exploded. Check the difference in scoring between 2000 and 2001. In 2007, it seems we finally got the old sort of ball back (damn frustrating that Hoggard immeditaly missed most of the season), let's hope we keep it.

It hasn't especially affected Sidebottom - he's been one of the few still good enough to maintain a respectible First-Class record. But I doubt he'd have been that successful at Tests had he been introduced to them in 2004, say, or 2006. The fact that Jonathan Lewis, one of the best swing-bowlers going around, barely swung a single delivery in his to-date only Test despite conditions being about as good as they'll ever be I think attests to this.

Lewis is another bowler who I can only wonder how good he might have been between 2001 and 2006 had the quality of the balls been better.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

Annoyingly all at the time I was trying to make it



He is West Indian isnt he? Ive never seen him play and I was discussing last year with people on here that he is highly thought of but hadnt seen any playing time.

Last season was good for him. If he is avaiable for England and is as promising as made out, then Id have no issue with that selection for the Lions.

He has an English granny so qualifies for England, but he wants to play for the West Indies.

 

[Richard]

Annoyingly all at the time I was trying to make it

Wow, yeah, had never thought about that before.

You'd have been, what, 21 in 1998 and 22 in 1999? Which is pretty much when there was the biggest queue.

 

[Goughy]

Wow, yeah, had never thought about that before.

You'd have been, what, 21 in 1998 and 22 in 1999? Which is pretty much when there was the biggest queue.

Well, you go back to when I was younger to about '94 where all the comp was (there were some that were far better than me and one or 2 (naming no names) that were not a patch. The fight is before getting FC debut. Once you are there then you progress quite dramatically as a player and have effectively made it.

The competition is at 16, 17, 18, 19 etc rather than 21 &22

 

[GIMH]

Apparently my old boss could made it as a pro cricketer but decided to go on a canoeing holiday instead

 

[Goughy]

Apparently my old boss could made it as a pro cricketer but decided to go on a canoeing holiday instead

Im not talking about myself here, but it is amazing how Counties used to behave (and maybe still do).

They often worked on Financial considerations as much as ability. I know a number of people that were offered around 2000 pounds plus match fees for the season.

They obviously earned far more in their job plus cash from club cricket and turned it down.

Counties would then take the guys that said Yes and ignored the others, despite their ability, for financial reasons.

 

[ozone]

Hoggard hasn't swung the ball that much between 2001 and 2006, though, at least compared to how previous bowlers had - I honestly believe that had the balls been like those that were used in the 1990s and 2000 Hoggard's Test record in England would be better than Phillip DeFreitas', possibly much better.

Dunno about not swung it much, any number of left handers would probably disagree although I don't know enough to say whether it was that different to previous bowlers.

It hasn't especially affected Sidebottom - he's been one of the few still good enough to maintain a respectible First-Class record. But I doubt he'd have been that successful at Tests had he been introduced to them in 2004, say, or 2006. The fact that Jonathan Lewis, one of the best swing-bowlers going around, barely swung a single delivery in his to-date only Test despite conditions being about as good as they'll ever be I think attests to this.

Well, he possibly wouldn't have been but then he is remarkably similar to Hoggard who has had a successful test career over the same time period

Lewis is another bowler who I can only wonder how good he might have been between 2001 and 2006 had the quality of the balls been better.

IMO, Jon Lewis was never Test Standard. On a green-top pitch in May, he might have taken wickets, but I just don't see him taking wickets unless it was absolutely made for a swing bowler because unlike other similar bowlers, he doesn't have any pace to fall back on. If the balls not swinging, he's only a jot quicker than Paul Collingwood (not suggesting Collingwood is as good a bowler as Lewis), and at test level, it just won't take wickets.

 

[cover drive man]

***Official*** England in New Zealand

5 Feb 1st Twenty20 International Jade Stadium (floodlit) Christchurch
7 Feb 2nd Twenty20 International Eden Park (floodlit) Auckland
9 Feb 1st ODI (Day/Night) Westpac Stadium Wellington
12 Feb 2nd ODI (Day/Night) Seddon Park Hamilton
15 Feb 3rd ODI (Day/Night) Eden Park Auckland
20 Feb 4th ODI McLean Park Napier
23 Feb 5th ODI (Day/Night) Jade Stadium Christchurch
5 - 9 Mar First Test Seddon Park Hamilton
13-17 Mar Second Test Basin Reserve Wellington
22-26 Mar Third Test McLean Park Napier

 

[cover drive man]

England will be lucky to get win a few matches tbh. Very poor side.

 

[Days of Grace]

The big question will be whether Bond turns out for NZ. Could have a dramatic result on the series whether he does or not.

 

[GIMH]

Fancy us here actually