• Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

***Official*** England in New Zealand series 2013

Meridio

International Regular
Any thoughts on when to declare should be put on hold until we see what the weather is like tomorrow morning.

If it is raining, or the start will be delayed, I would probably declare now.
If it isn't, I would keep batting for 45 minutes to an hour, and go hell for leather. If we make an extra 50-70 runs in the morning, then that's 50-70 runs we wouldn't have to chase in the second innings, when the pitch is likely to be lower and slower and harder to score quickly on.
 

Blain

U19 Captain
If play starts on time, keep batting for 30-60 minutes or so. It would f*ck with them more mentally. Ride them into the ground, and make them chase 300 to even make us bat again.
 

social

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Any thoughts on when to declare should be put on hold until we see what the weather is like tomorrow morning.

If it is raining, or the start will be delayed, I would probably declare now.
If it isn't, I would keep batting for 45 minutes to an hour, and go hell for leather. If we make an extra 50-70 runs in the morning, then that's 50-70 runs we wouldn't have to chase in the second innings, when the pitch is likely to be lower and slower and harder to score quickly on.
This
 

Cabinet96

Hall of Fame Member
Hopefully people will stop assuming Finn to be a proven test performer after this test. It's ridiculous that so many people had him ahead of Broad in their pecking order based on a couple of tests in India where Broad wasn't fully fit.

So what are people's thoughts on Broad these days?

IMO, and despite the odd excellent performance, he's hardly improved since debut and still has the same technical (poor use of the front arm) and tactical (length is too short) flaws

Now one might be related to the other as it must be difficult to pitch in on a consistently good length if the front arm is flapping around and being thrown out towards cover.

However, his ****ty attitude on the field gives the impression that he feels as if he is bowling well and is just a good player out of luck

Unfortunately, the stats dont lie and he is averaging early 30s with a bullet upwards despite bowling largely in favourable conditions and behind a guy that consistently makes early breakthroughs
If you take out the first two years he averages below 30 though, and it would be below 28 were it not for those tests in India where he wasn't fully fit.

He's easing his way back into it, but from what I saw in the highlights, he was OK today, better than he has been in the last few months at least. If you look at since just before the India series in 2011, he's been averaging 25, and while it hasn't been great in the last 6 months, his performances in the last couple of years certainly don't warrant him falling behind Woakes and Finn in the pecking order, in my eyes, which will make him still in the best XI of the current squad.
 

wpdavid

Hall of Fame Member
So England may yet get saved by the weather, a better performance today but not saying much and can still improve. Pitch looks flat so if we bat properly we should save the game. Could be the one chance NZ get to force a win as England can't play this badly again surely so they need to take it.
I think the evidence of the last 14 months is that we absolutely can play this badly again. The overwhelming message since Jan. 2012 is that unless Cook and/or KP score big, then we fold like a pack of cards. Trott and Bell have continued to do exactly what they did throughout 2012, and the much vaunted lower-middle order seem to have regressed. Actually, thinking about that last comment, I suppose it's not fair to blame Swann and Bresnan for their lack of runs in this test. Anyway ....
Obviously it's early days for Compton and Root, but the decision to jetison Bairstow after his performance against SA isn't looking any smarter now than when I commented on it before this test.

As for the bowling, I'd like to think that Finn will improve, but I don't see the Kiwis providing wickets with any pace for him, and why should they? And Broad has continued to bowl like he did since the first half of our summer last year, so there's no reason to assume that he'll improve next time around.
 

Cabinet96

Hall of Fame Member
England have been rubbish in tests for 18 months. All the media talk of complacency and lack of preparation is just a way of getting around the truth.
 

wpdavid

Hall of Fame Member
England have been rubbish in tests for 18 months. All the media talk of complacency and lack of preparation is just a way of getting around the truth.
I think it's reasonable to ask why they've performed so badly. The one exception of course was in India, and I'm not concinved it's coincidental that they had some serious preparation over there before the tests started. Obviously some of the comments about them when they reached number 1 were way OTT, but you don't win 3 tests in Aus by an innings if you're hopeless, so I'm willing to consider the possibility that they were guilty of complacency. My view 12 months ago is that they were completely unprepared for conditions in the UAE, and I think some of them even carried their duff attitude into the SA series.

I do think that a duff attitude is something of a default setting for English cricketers unless a really good captain and coach sort the buggers out for a while, but maybe that's best left for another time.
 

Cabinet96

Hall of Fame Member
Obviously preparation helps, and obviously a second or even a third warm up game here would've been useful. But with the international schedule as it is, it's simply not possible to do that. England are already playing 20 FC games in 2013 as it is, along with ODI's and T20I's.

But really, if we're thinking that England are going into games like this complacent, then our heads are in the sand. In their last 15 tests before this one they won just five, and lost eight. Then they managed to lose to NZ A with just two players away from a full strength side. After all that, I really doubt they would've gone into this game thinking "oh, this'll be a walk in the park". The only test I can possibly think they may have gone into being complacent, is the 1st Test at Dubai against Pakistan, but I highly doubt they'd have ever been complacent after that.

Truth is, England have been pretty unimpressive everywhere recently. Everyone sighted the conditions and the playing of spin as the reason we lost in the UAE, but even average bowlers like Umar Gul where able to take top order wickets at Dubai. At home we didn't finish off West Indies as well as we'd have liked, and compared with our wins against Australia, Sri Lanka and India in 2011, the wins were far from convincing. I didn't even think South Africa played that well against us if I'm honest. England managed to throw away a lot of wickets with crap shots, the like of which we hadn't seen in 2010 and 2011. The India series suddenly made people look a lot more positively on the year, but in truth we were reliant on a handful of performers there, and players like Trott and Bell didn't make a big impact until the final stages where India were as deflated as can be. All the hard yards at Ahmedebad, Mumbai and the early stages of Kolkata where done by Cook, Pietersen, Prior, the spinners, and to an extent, Anderson.

I can't really quite put my head around why we've been so poor since beating India, but it is quite obvious to see we have been. In the year beginning with the Ashes and ending with the India series in 2011, we hit six double 100's, since we've hit zero, with Cook being the only man to have hit more than 160 in an innings. Players like Trott, who made a name for themselves by never giving it away, have only hit two 100's in the last 18 months, despite getting numerous starts. All the seamers, even Anderson at times, have lost a bit of nip from what we saw when they demolished the Aussies and Indians.

England should win the Ashes, but before they start the batsman need to start remembering how to bat long, and the bowlers need to make sure they've fit to bowl at higher speeds and sustain the pressure longer. You know, like what we were doing this time two years ago. Otherwise, it's going to be much harder than many people seem to think.
 

Pup Clarke

Cricketer Of The Year
Fully expecting to get shot down in flames, but I reckon Dernbach is worth a go for Tests. Honestly, I think the environment (test cricket) will suit him alot better than the shorter form because batsman obviously will take far greater caution - and there's no need for slower balls.

He should be in the mix at the very least and I expect him to play soonish.
 

Cabinet96

Hall of Fame Member
Also comments like this really bug me

David Hoops said:
England's slip cordon, with Andrew Strauss retired and, in this match, Graeme Swann injured, is not what it was.
He speaks like England were grabbing everything that dared move in the air throughout the 2012 summer, Pakistan and Sri Lanka series, when Strauss and Swann were always there.
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
England have been rubbish in tests for 18 months. All the media talk of complacency and lack of preparation is just a way of getting around the truth.
You talk a lot about people offering up excuses but I'm going to put it out there that I'm really not sold on the idea of Broad being perennially "not fully fit" ever since the tour of the UAE, personally. It was like Bresnan when he came back from injury; we kept waiting for him to "get fit again" and start bowling properly but it wasn't his fitness that was the problem; he had declined as a bowler due to injury. He just wasn't as good anymore, and without addressing the problem properly it was never going to get better.

Despite being a wholly inconsistent bowler throughout his entire career with plenty of ups and downs, we're just supposed to swallow that after doing something eerily similar to what he did earlier his career against South Africa - dish up over after over of short, innocuous crap and then randomly take a five wicket haul of questionable quality in one innings, but still average 40 odd for the series - that a couple of niggles just make any bowling he does irrelevant until you decide he's fit again?

Finn was ahead of Broad in the pecking order because Broad had consistently not bowled very well for a period. Whether it was because he was injured or not, Broad had to prove that he was either fit again, or bowling well again; it doesn't matter which because the result is effectively the same.
 
Last edited:

fredfertang

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I don't know the current state of his fitness, but would feel considerably reassured if the name Tremlett were to find its way back in to the England side
 

Cabinet96

Hall of Fame Member
You talk a lot about people offering up excuses but I'm going to put it out there that I'm really not sold on the idea of Broad being perennially "not fully fit" ever since the tour of the UAE, personally. It was like Bresnan when he came back from injury; we kept waiting for him to "get fit again" and start bowling properly but it wasn't his fitness that was the problem; he had declined as a bowler due to injury. He just wasn't as good anymore, and without addressing the problem properly it was never going to get better.

Despite being a wholly inconsistent bowler throughout his entire career with plenty of ups and downs, we're just supposed to swallow that after doing something eerily similar to what Broad did earlier his career against South Africa - dish up over after over of short, innocuous crap and then randomly take a five wicket haul of questionable quality in one innings, but still average 40 odd for the series - that a couple of niggles just make any bowling he does irrelevant until you decide he's fit again?

Finn was ahead of Broad in the pecking order because Broad had consistently not bowled very well for a period. Whether it was because he was injured or not, Broad had to prove that he was either fit again, or bowling well again; it doesn't matter which because the result is effectively the same.
Tbf, I only think that his two tests in India were when he wasn't fully fit. And I have reason for that. He got a heel injury in the warm ups, and then played no cricket (well match time that is) until the first test. He was then dropped for the 3rd test, arguably on cricketing not fitness grounds, but then managed to pick up another heel injury, meaning he was sent home for the Nagpur test and had to sit out the one dayers. I personally don't feel it was just coincidence that he managed to get the same injury that had caused there to be a cloud over him before the first test, while he was sitting on his backside when dropped. I reckon it wasn't right when he played the first two tests, and he therefore aggravated it further. I'm perfectly fine with him being classed as fully fit throughout the 2012 summer.

Bresnan is an interesting one. My main worry is that when he came back he was bowling much slower with an elbow brace on. It wasn't just a case of him not having the same form he once had, he was genuinely bowling much slower, which comes down to more than just bowling rhythm IMO.
 
Last edited:

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
Tbf, I only think that his two tests in India where when he wasn't fully fit. And I have reason for that. He got a heel injury in the warm ups, and then played no cricket (well match time that is) until the first test. He was then dropped for the 3rd test, arguably on cricketing not fitness grounds, but then managed to pick up a heel injury further, meaning he was sent home for the Nagpur test and had to sit out the one dayers. I personally don't feel it was just coincidence that he managed to get the same injury that had caused there to be a cloud over him before the first test, while he was sitting on his backside when dropped. I reckon it wasn't right when he played the first two tests, and he therefore aggravated it further. I'm perfectly fine with him being classed as fully fit throughout the 2012 summer.
Yeah, I'm not saying that you were saying he wasn't fully fit throughout the 2012 summer. It's just that he bowled crap then despite being at full fitness, so I'm not entirely willing to accept that the fact that he continued to bowl crap after that too must've been because of an injury.

Whether Broad's problem was fitness or just performance, he needs to prove he's fit and performing well again. He's not doing that. In the end it doesn't matter if he's bowling crap because he's injured or he's bowling crap because he's actually crap; the opposition still aren't going to get out to him. And that's exactly what been happening for his last six Tests, extending back to the middle of last year. The last time I really remember him bowling well was at home against the West Indies which was just under a year ago. Questions do eventually have to be asked.
 

L Trumper

State Regular
Unless Cook and KP score runs, England are pretty crap. I guess that is one more batsman than what Aussies got. Also England bowling is extremely dependent on Jimmy, apart from him there isn't really any wicket taking bowlers(not on non-spinning wickets anyway). Third test against WI is a clear case of awful English bowling which continued since then. I don't think resting first choice in that game worked at all. In fact bowlers came to SA test without any practice for a month. On a whole they seem to me as a pretty ordinary team. Also this is bull**** about not having a great cordon, as Cabinet said they are missing chances left and right even before. Fielding is pretty poor for more than a year. Since Swann is injured, I'd say Cook, KP, Prior, Jimmy are the only players who have reasonable records over last 18 months (Monty to an extent). Remaining all are ranging from awful to mediocrity. Early days for Root and Compton though. Also need to stick with a number 6 and opener for at least couple of series without changing and chopping.
 

L Trumper

State Regular
Obviously preparation helps, and obviously a second or even a third warm up game here would've been useful. But with the international schedule as it is, it's simply not possible to do that. England are already playing 20 FC games in 2013 as it is, along with ODI's and T20I's.

But really, if we're thinking that England are going into games like this complacent, then our heads are in the sand. In their last 15 tests before this one they won just five, and lost eight. Then they managed to lose to NZ A with just two players away from a full strength side. After all that, I really doubt they would've gone into this game thinking "oh, this'll be a walk in the park". The only test I can possibly think they may have gone into being complacent, is the 1st Test at Dubai against Pakistan, but I highly doubt they'd have ever been complacent after that.

Truth is, England have been pretty unimpressive everywhere recently. Everyone sighted the conditions and the playing of spin as the reason we lost in the UAE, but even average bowlers like Umar Gul where able to take top order wickets at Dubai. At home we didn't finish off West Indies as well as we'd have liked, and compared with our wins against Australia, Sri Lanka and India in 2011, the wins were far from convincing. I didn't even think South Africa played that well against us if I'm honest. England managed to throw away a lot of wickets with crap shots, the like of which we hadn't seen in 2010 and 2011. The India series suddenly made people look a lot more positively on the year, but in truth we were reliant on a handful of performers there, and players like Trott and Bell didn't make a big impact until the final stages where India were as deflated as can be. All the hard yards at Ahmedebad, Mumbai and the early stages of Kolkata where done by Cook, Pietersen, Prior, the spinners, and to an extent, Anderson.

I can't really quite put my head around why we've been so poor since beating India, but it is quite obvious to see we have been. In the year beginning with the Ashes and ending with the India series in 2011, we hit six double 100's, since we've hit zero, with Cook being the only man to have hit more than 160 in an innings. Players like Trott, who made a name for themselves by never giving it away, have only hit two 100's in the last 18 months, despite getting numerous starts. All the seamers, even Anderson at times, have lost a bit of nip from what we saw when they demolished the Aussies and Indians.

England should win the Ashes, but before they start the batsman need to start remembering how to bat long, and the bowlers need to make sure they've fit to bowl at higher speeds and sustain the pressure longer. You know, like what we were doing this time two years ago. Otherwise, it's going to be much harder than many people seem to think.
Great post. Only correction is KP, Cook both hit more than 160/150 over the last year.
 

theegyptian

International Vice-Captain
Cook is the rock. If NZ get him early it is game over barring weather or freak performances.

Some good news about Bresnan that was forgotten at the time because England were collapsing in their first innings but a couple of days ago he tweeted.

Tim Bresnan ‏@timbresnan

Just to Let you lot who don't know into "the Loop" swanny is in unbelievable hands. If ever I have anything wrong with me again. The man ...

They call Shawn is sorting it. He is as good at surgery on elbows as Dave Grohl is on drums. Av it. I have done things in the last 2 weeks

That I have not done in 18 months without pain. #savior



Sounds like really good news for Bres at this initial stage. Really happy for him. Fingers crossed for Swann as well.
 

social

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I don't know the current state of his fitness, but would feel considerably reassured if the name Tremlett were to find its way back in to the England side
I'd like Harris to be in the Oz side and the Pakistanis would like Asif in theirs - neither are less likely than Tremlett returning to his best IMO
 

Furball

Evil Scotsman
England's bowling has definitely declined; the only seamer I actually trust to perform is Jimmeh.

Finn is just garbage.
 

Scaly piscine

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Unless Cook and KP score runs, England are pretty crap. I guess that is one more batsman than what Aussies got. Also England bowling is extremely dependent on Jimmy, apart from him there isn't really any wicket taking bowlers(not on non-spinning wickets anyway).
Exaggerate much?
 

Top