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***Official*** England in New Zealand series 2013

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
There is just no way IMO that the difference between McCullum's output in the middle order and McCullum's output opening is going to be greater than the difference between Brownlie or Ryder and Peter Fulton or Martin Guptill.

Your second opener is going to average high 20s, tops. McCullum's going to need to average 50 odd batting in the middle order to make up for that difference and for one don't think he'll come even close.
 
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straw man

Hall of Fame Member
You're not only robbing Peter to pay Paul, but putting yourself in a situation where you'll keep robbing Peter for no gain even once Paul is back on his feet.
Rob Peter, shoot Paul, import Saul, frame Peter for a crime he didn't commit, foreclose on Paul's house. Promote Bill and Ben. Profit.
 

Jezroy

State Captain
Ryder should not necessarily have to be one of the best four middle order batsmen in New Zealand to make the side; if he's fifth and one of those four is also one of your best two openers then he bloody well should be playing.
I 100% get your point.

I do not 100% agree with it. More like 20%. And that has changed recently due to being impressed with McCullum down the order, reservations I have about Ryder to come back and really give a ****, and worries that McCullum is actually not up to it as an opener.

And I think it's about a 5% chance that McCullum will open again.

I'm not McCullum's biggest fan, but would point out that he wanted to bat 4/5 in SA, and opened as it was "best for the team". And he sort of sucked at it. But he still did it. Four times.
 

Mike5181

International Captain
I was just playing Devil's Advocate - I would say it's far more probable McCullum will average 40 at #6 than 50.

In my opinion, I think the best order for us is:

Rutherford
Another (Guptill/Fulton obvious choices at the moment)
Williamson
Taylor
Ryder
McCullum
Ronchi

With Brownlie and Watling floating around as middle order back up, there i a lot of strength there. Real lack of depth still with spin bowling and openers. But middle order and medium/fast bowling looking good.
1. Hamish Rutherford
2. Brendon McCullum
3. Kane Williamson
4. Ross Taylor
5. Jesse Ryder
6. Dean Brownlie
7. BJ Watling (Maybe Ronchi. If that happens Watling could compete with Brownlie for that number six spot.)

Not going to lie. If Rutherford becomes a decent opener, that team is massively promising considering what we had a year or two ago.

Wagner vs Bracewell is another interesting decision if the former continues to perform. It's only the one bowling performance so far though.
 

Flem274*

123/5
I'm mostly with PEWS on this. Ryder batting properly demands a spot. Ryder batting like he is atm can gagf.

I was just playing Devil's Advocate - I would say it's far more probable McCullum will average 40 at #6 than 50.

In my opinion, I think the best order for us is:

Rutherford
Another (Guptill/Fulton obvious choices at the moment)
Williamson
Taylor
Ryder
McCullum
Ronchi

With Brownlie and Watling floating around as middle order back up, there i a lot of strength there. Real lack of depth still with spin bowling and openers. But middle order and medium/fast bowling looking good.
I'm sorry, but imo its pretty clearly

Watling > Ronchi
Brownlie >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than the undecided opener.

Rutherford
McCullum
Williamson
Taylor
Brownlie
Ryder
Watling

If we want to fit the best seven batsmen in the country on the same team sheet (and you could argue that genius innings aside, Ronchi or a couple of others rival Rutherford) then the side I just listed is the only way to do it.
 
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Flem274*

123/5
Wagner vs Bracewell is another interesting decision if the former continues to perform. It's only the one bowling performance so far though.
I don't mean to sound like I'm attacking your post because you're quite right that that's how the selectors will be thinking, but I'd bet my avatar on a long term bet that Wheeler, Milne and Henry will all prove to be better bowlers than Wagner.
 

Bahnz

Hall of Fame Member
I'm mostly with PEWS on this. Ryder batting properly demands a spot. Ryder batting like he is atm can gagf.



I'm sorry, but imo its pretty clearly

Watling > Ronchi
Brownlie > than the undecided opener.

Rutherford
McCullum
Williamson
Taylor
Brownlie
Ryder
Watling

If we want to fit the best seven batsmen in the country on the same team sheet (and you could argue that genius innings aside, Ronchi or a couple of others rival Rutherford) then the side I just listed is the only way to do it.
I don't think that it's at all clear that Watling is a better bat than Ronchi yet, and he's certainly not a better keeper (though our lack of viable spin bowling options means that's unlikely to ever be significantly exposed).

With that proviso, I agree with your top 7.
 

Mike5181

International Captain
I don't mean to sound like I'm attacking your post because you're quite right that that's how the selectors will be thinking, but I'd bet my avatar on a long term bet that Wheeler, Milne and Henry will all prove to be better bowlers than Wagner.
I already rate Wheeler, and Henry right up there with Wagner. But that's irrelevant, because until those guys improve their fitness/get over their injuries, they won't be in the mix.
 

Flem274*

123/5
I don't think that it's at all clear that Watling is a better bat than Ronchi yet, and he's certainly not a better keeper (though our lack of viable spin bowling options means that's unlikely to ever be significantly exposed).

With that proviso, I agree with your top 7.
Based on what? Watling has been very tidy for New Zealand. Siddons rates Ronchi the best gloveman in NZ but he also told us Gillespie was back to his best and well...

Though obvz if you've been torturing yourself by watching full innings of Wellington bowling this season and you've seen heaps of Ronchi then I'll pay that.
 

Jezroy

State Captain
I'm mostly with PEWS on this. Ryder batting properly demands a spot. Ryder batting like he is atm can gagf.
That's part of my argument. Ryder demands a spot - he will get a spot. At the moment, I'm not sure he does.

Watling > Ronchi
Still not 100% on this. Watling has done pretty well, but people that know more than I do think that Ronchi is the second coming.

Brownlie > than the undecided opener.
Fair.

If we want to fit the best seven batsmen in the country on the same team sheet (and you could argue that genius innings aside, Ronchi or a couple of others rival Rutherford) then the side I just listed is the only way to do it.
I guess my wish is that we just pick the best two openers, the best four middle order bats, the best keeper, the best four bowlers.

I'm now starting to think McCullum is one of the four best middle order bats. Which takes him out of the opening position. I wanted McCullum to open initially, and he initially did well. I think as time went by, he looked less and less convincing, and I don't think he should be there anymore.
 
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Flem274*

123/5
I already rate Wheeler, and Henry right up there with Wagner. But that's irrelevant, because until those guys improve their fitness/get over their injuries, they won't be in the mix.
Yeah, I acknowledged that in my previous post.

Though tbh I would have had Wheeler in the squad this summer ahead of Wagner.
 

Mike5181

International Captain
Yeah, I acknowledged that in my previous post.

Though tbh I would have had Wheeler in the squad this summer ahead of Wagner.
What I was more getting at, is what happens if Wagner takes 3 or 4 wickets in the second innings? There's no way we could justify selecting Bracewell again for the second test.
 

Bahnz

Hall of Fame Member
Based on what? Watling has been very tidy for New Zealand. Siddons rates Ronchi the best gloveman in NZ but he also told us Gillespie was back to his best and well...

Though obvz if you've been torturing yourself by watching full innings of Wellington bowling this season and you've seen heaps of Ronchi then I'll pay that.
My point merely is that Watling doing well enough for New Zealand isn't cut and dried proof that he's automatically a better player than Ronchi. And given that Watling's only been a regular in the test side for 3 matches now, his test record doesn't offer that much on which to base the assumption of his superiority.
 

Flem274*

123/5
That's part of my argument. Ryder demands a spot - he will get a spot. At the moment, I'm not sure he does.



Still not 100% on this. Watling has done pretty well, but people that know more than I do think that Ronchi is the second coming.



Fair.



I guess my wish is that we just pick the best two openers, the best four middle order bats, the best keeper, the best four bowlers.

I think McCullum is one of the four best middle order bats. Which takes him out of the opening position. I wanted McCullum to open initially, and he initially did well. I think as time went by, he looked less and less convincing, and I don't think he should be there anymore.
I think the underlying point behind the outbursts on the previous page is fair: if the middle order is performing and there is no easy route back into the side for Ryder, it means he will have to actually score some properly made runs and bat like he did for New Zealand, and that can only be a good thing for both Jesse Ryder's batting and the standard of the Plunket Shield.

By properly made I don't mean slow either: fast runs are fine, provided he's not slogging or backing away from the more threatening bowlers or batting like he did against Southee when the going gets tough.
 

Jezroy

State Captain
Aaargh, England are going to get away with this, I can feel it.
NZ lead by 235 runs.

Approx 98 overs left per day (Assuming no rain/light issues)

NZ declare over night? England will need around 80 overs to get rid of the deficit. Leaves around 120 overs.

I would say England then need to bat around another 70 of those 120 overs to save the game.

So the question is, can England bat around 150 to save the game?
 

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