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**Official** England in New Zealand 28 Nov-18 Dec 2024 - 3 Tests

Skyliner

Skyliner

State Captain
Kenneth Viljoen said:
From my POV , There is a clique that has been formed in the NZ team that allows certain players not to be dropped , I don't believe that Stead is stupid nor do I believe Southee is either.They know exactly what they are doing.
Bowlers aren't like batters , getting 20 wickets is the hardest thing in test cricket and when your new ball bowler is averaging 60 in 10 test matches , for me there is no longer a cricketing reason as to why Southee is being picked.
The captaincy has been used as a shield to protect players from being dropped, Southee benefitted and then passed it on to Latham.To save face , Stead and Southee compromised by playing the retirement card on the NZ fans for this current series to justify Southee's selection. That's what it looks like to me and I think that's selfish. Henry had to miss out on the SL tour because of Southee when he's had one of the greatest years ever for a NZ seamer, a potential place at the WTC final has been compromised. I think that's all very selfish.
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Henry and Young have been the sacrificial dupes for years. They get shuffled in and out of the side to make it look as though some change is occurring, when actually none is.
 
A

ashley bach

Cricketer Of The Year
Dick Rockett said:
Agree. I wanted Southee gone a long time ago but I don't doubt that the man thinks he's good enough to be in the team and therefore an asset to it.
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The whole world and the dog next door knows he hasn't been an asset to the team for a very long time.
If the man himself actually believes he is an asset to the team, then it's fair to say he's as cooked in the brain as much as he is on the field.
 
Prince EWS

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
Dick Rockett said:
Agree. I wanted Southee gone a long time ago but I don't doubt that the man thinks he's good enough to be in the team and therefore an asset to it.
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Yep. Southee should be criticised for batting like an idiot for his entire career and bowling pies the last 18 months, but he's not meant to be a selector. It's not up to him to decide if he's good enough. If he's still putting in and still wants to contribute then he's totally within his rights to make himself available.

#SteadsFault but unironically.
 
thierry henry

thierry henry

International Coach
Just on Southee’s legacy, I kinda feel like (particularly amongst Joe Public as opposed to CWers) he’s never had a consistently good reputation anyway? There’s a lot of things about him that have conspired to make him an easy target for criticism

- Doesn’t bowl quick and his pace has always tended to vary a bit, so can easily be typecast as a half-hearted trundler when not doing that well
- not a great LO bowler and arguably overused and misused in the white ball formats, so a lot of his highest profile matches have involved him getting tonked, particularly at the death
- Was pretty crap for the first several years of his career, which is a hard reputation to shake, and then was crap for several years at the end
- Batted like an absolute idiot most of the time

I honestly think a lot of casual fans see Southee as a gormless batsman who bowls 125kph slot balls at the death

I suspect a critical reassessment on retirement which focuses on how good he was at test cricket 2012-2022ish will improve his standing
 
K

kevinw

State Captain
You don't get the best part of 400 wickets at a smidge over 30 without being a good bowler, even if it suggests a slightly erratic career at this level. For most of this period NZ have not been blessed with loads of fast bowling options so he was a steady mainstay. He probably should have gone a year ago and if Jamieson was fit, then he definitely should have been phased out. That poor final year will taint his record and reputation.
 
thierry henry

thierry henry

International Coach
Yeah I probably shouldn’t have said ‘critical reassessment’ cos obviously most critics already know that he’s been good. I do however think he’s always been unusually disliked/underrated by the public so I’m trying to reconcile that.
 
Bahnz

Bahnz

Hall of Fame Member
thierry henry said:
I suspect a critical reassessment on retirement which focuses on how good he was at test cricket 2012-2022ish will improve his standing
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Yeah, southee during this period was on par with Boult and Wagner (at least statistically). Had his ups and downs, but was lethal on his day. He debuted too young and hung around a year too long
 
Dick Rockett

Dick Rockett

International Vice-Captain
thierry henry said:
- Was pretty crap for the first several years of his career, which is a hard reputation to shake, and then was crap for several years at the end
- Batted like an absolute idiot most of the time
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You're spot on about this stuff. He copped a lot of flak early in his career when he was averaging in the mid-high 40s with the ball and... batting like an idiot.

Plus for me personally he's always given off the air of someone who wasn't that into it.

But that middle bit of his career was incredible and he was one of the best bowlers I've ever seen. And we had Boult at the same time, who I've always considered the better of the two. Glory days...
 
thundaboult

thundaboult

International Debutant
Dick Rockett said:
You're spot on about this stuff. He copped a lot of flak early in his career when he was averaging in the mid-high 40s with the ball and... batting like an idiot.

Plus for me personally he's always given off the air of someone who wasn't that into it.

But that middle bit of his career was incredible and he was one of the best bowlers I've ever seen. And we had Boult at the same time, who I've always considered the better of the two. Glory days...
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yep, this
 
thierry henry

thierry henry

International Coach
I also just think his style of slightly floaty outswingers and subtle variations wasn’t as ***y as a peak Boult spell of in-swinging yorkers, or as inspiring as Wagnerball. Maybe it’s just me but I do feel like there was a wider perception that Southee was less dangerous/effective than he actually was.
 
S

SteveNZ

Cricketer Of The Year
Stuff says the six Crawley hit off Southee in the first over of the Test was the only time that's ever happened to a seamer in Test history. Wasn't aware that would be true
 
Molehill

Molehill

Cricketer Of The Year
It's interesting comparing Broad/Anderson v Boult/Southee. Broad was maybe lucky that an Ashes series fell at the right time of his career to call it a day, but he's also an intelligent and self aware bloke that nailed his retirement perfectly. Anderson's performance had rarely been called into question (all bowlers have the odd bad series), and the fact we were still wondering whether it was the right time to push him out confirms that. But they took that tough decision and it's no doubt they're reaping the rewards for that now with his successors. Both guys also seem in a happy place.

Compare that to the obvious resentment and bitterness we see from Boult and the farce that is the Southee send off. It's clear he should be nowhere near this team now. Unless England have been drinking hard on the golf course, it's hard not to see how it's 3-0 come next week.
 
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