***Official*** DRS discussion thread

[Jacknife]

use hawkye only for showing actual impact. do away with the predictive path altogether. use the mat and slow mo camera to weed out obvious errors like pitching outside leg, inside edges etc.

in this age of technology, pls make available the feed in the on field umpire's hands like a tablet or something, so that the umpire can himself review the decision rather than placing trust on the words of a second person.

and lol at blind lovers of udrs. cevno 2 > hawkye devotees 0.

Are you for real , most of the people on this site who think URDS is a positive thing have never said it's 100% faultless and accurate, or as you put it 'blind lovers'.
I think most people can look at URDS and decide for themselves and work and the advantages and disadvantages of the system but obviously if they don't share your view on it, they must be 'blind lovers'.
Like when we always bring this topic up, imo it is better to be getting more correct decisions than not and that's all that matters at the end of the day. Of course things can be improved and as time goes by the technology will constantly get better.
If people are waiting for this to be 100% faultless, they will be in for a long wait but I still don't understand the need for perfection in something like this.
The time when Snicko can be used in conjunction with Hotspot and can be used by the umpires, will improve the system immensely.

 

[Jacknife]

`
Where do you get that from?

Because the ECB Chairman way back during the SA tour more than a year and a half back said that the system was absolutely useless without Hotspot .

Every single board agreed to the hotspot and nobody objected from all the reports. The article becomes atrocious when it doesn't suit the convenient line?

Well that was when the ECB wanted the whole use of the technology, not a hybrid system and there's no doubt Hotspot has proved valuable many times since then but to use it solely is lacking to say the least.

 

[Cevno]

Well that was when the ECB wanted the whole use of the technology, not a hybrid system and there's no doubt Hotspot has proved valuable many times since then but to use it solely is lacking to say the least.

Eh?

Every single board agreed that Snicko couldn't be used because it took too much time to load in many cases and can be inaccurate as was the case in the current India - England series on many occasions and one occasion couldn't load because of background disturbances. Besides it is solely reliant on the stump mics which can themselves pick up weird sounds.

What more can you use along with it?

I still believe Hotspot can be a useful tool but only to be used for clear instances and not marginal ones and if used properly and consistently.

 

[Cevno]

Are you for real , most of the people on this site who think URDS is a positive thing have never said it's 100% faultless and accurate, or as you put it 'blind lovers'.
I think most people can look at URDS and decide for themselves and work and the advantages and disadvantages of the system but obviously if they don't share your view on it, they must be 'blind lovers'.
Like when we always bring this topic up, imo it is better to be getting more correct decisions than not and that's all that matters at the end of the day. Of course things can be improved and as time goes by the technology will constantly get better.
If people are waiting for this to be 100% faultless, they will be in for a long wait but I still don't understand the need for perfection in something like this.
The time when Snicko can be used in conjunction with Hotspot and can be used by the umpires, will improve the system immensely.

Nobody on here is opposed to the UDRS fully or even to Hawkeye fully.

But there are some who will just blindly follow it and other technologies and want it used for every single thing based on what the makers are saying. And also come up with silly excuses to cover it up when clearly there is a error. Even dismissing what the owners of Virtual Eye technology are themselves saying.

As Simon Taufel himself put it -

"Why can't we tap into technology if the match official is missing a piece of information, and is it right that the match official has to make a decision before technology can be used?" Taufel said. "That's a fundamental question I think we're still working through. Under the current system we're encouraged to make decisions and if a player feels they disagree with that then they've got the right to review. But if they get that wrong twice, then we can't use technology anymore in that innings for that particular team.

"They're the parameters we're working with and that's the value we want to promote within the sport - do we just want to get the obvious mistake fixed up or do we want to get as many decisions right as possible? What are the technology tools we have to achieve that, and then how accurate are those tools? Have we really investigated that from an independent perspective, and have we got a categorical answer with that? Is it reliable on the day, rather than just relying on the provider of that technology to say 'it is x-amount accurate and the result is right' and we just take that on face value?"

Some questions that need answering among more and specific consistent parameters that have to be set.

 

[Top_Cat]

Where do you get that from?

Because the ECB Chairman way back during the SA tour more than a year and a half back said that the system was absolutely useless without Hotspot .

Every single board agreed to the hotspot and nobody objected from all the reports. The article becomes atrocious when it doesn't suit the convenient line?

The unanimous agreement only happened when HotSpot was added to the list of compulsory technologies for the URDS and Hawkeye was removed. Now, supposedly, 'errors are piling up' and the BCCI is complaining about a lack of consistency in implementation from country to country and apparently they should feel vindicated? Aside from the the fact that errors are not 'piling up' (the error rate has actually decreased), if there's a problem with consistent application of Hawkeye, it's because the BCCI and their voting bloc made it so by taking Hawkeye out of the compulsory list. They can't vote for a decision which removes the guarantee of consistent application of Hawkeye and then have a bitch when there's a problem with the consistent application of Hawkeye.

Hawkeye and the URDS in general aren't perfect but the numbers of mistakes measurably decreases when they're being used. That they're not 100% error-free (yet) is neither here nor there.

This line too;

In England, though, it emerged that even Hotspot was inconsistent.

Is ridiculous. It didn't emerge in England, HotSpot not picking up fine edges is as old as, well, Hotspot.

 

[Redbacks]

Is ridiculous. It didn't emerge in England, HotSpot not picking up fine edges is as old as, well, Hotspot.

Exactly, it has always happened. The heat sensor just isn't sensative enough to catch edges with a small amount of heat transfer.

 

[Cevno]

So Hawkeye (with it's self-confessed lack of accuracy over distances of less than 40cm) is being criticised for not having accuracy over a distance of less than 40cm. What next, Bears criticised for ****ting in the woods?

Interesting then how then it was being used for those type of decisions then?

The 2.5 metre restriction came about when clear errors were made and then now this new excuse comes up only when a clear error is made.

This time it was a big error and pretty obvious(though some were still trying to make excuses at the time) so it was reported and they had to check. But do we blindly believe their word on other less iffy errors?
Why not believe the makers of Virtual eye then versus makers of Hawkeye? Both have commercial interests but one are being more honest right now. Though they may be forced to change tune too due to those interests later.

There was another one too, which hasn't been reported in the same match which i mentioned in this thread too -

http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/2644007-post6.html

And there have been in the past too where the Hawkeye has done some weird things but been dismissed as Hawkeye > Watching on TV.

 

[Jacknife]

Eh?

Every single board agreed that Snicko couldn't be used because it took too much time to load in many cases and can be inaccurate as was the case in the current India - England series on many occasions and one occasion couldn't load because of background disturbances. Besides it is solely reliant on the stump mics which can themselves pick up weird sounds.

What more can you use along with it?

I still believe Hotspot can be a useful tool but only to be used for clear instances and not marginal ones and if used properly and consistently.

Eh? Where are you getting Snicko from I never mentioned it.
You referred to the SA series with England, where they didn't have Hotspot and just Hawkeye as well as some really dodgy stump mics, that's where ECB kicked up a stink and wanted all the available technology to be used.

 

[Cevno]

Eh? Where are you getting Snicko from I never mentioned it.
You referred to the SA series with England, where they didn't have Hotspot and just Hawkeye as well as some really dodgy stump mics, that's where ECB kicked up a stink and wanted all the available technology to be used.

What the hell does Hotspot have to do with Hawkeye though?

There was a human differentiation and error like the one against Dravid the other day, with the feed the broadcasters being allegedly less loud than the one being broadcasted. Again comes down to inconsistencies implementation and not any lack of technology.

 

[marc71178]

Eh? Where are you getting Snicko from I never mentioned it.
You referred to the SA series with England, where they didn't have Hotspot and just Hawkeye as well as some really dodgy stump mics, that's where ECB kicked up a stink and wanted all the available technology to be used.

And incidentally, India agreed to using "infra-red cameras and audio-tracking devices" - yet we now hear moans about the audio tracking device when it showed Dravid to nick one.

 

[Cevno]

The unanimous agreement only happened when HotSpot was added to the list of compulsory technologies for the URDS and Hawkeye was removed.

Yes, because the BCCI didn't want the Hawkeye.

The Hotspot was included because without it the stump mic + Slow motion was to be used only and even with it when it doesn't work the stump mic is used and nothing really changes.
But when it works it certainly helps in giving more concrete evidence except the iffy stump mic(which can pick up weird noises) to overturn the decision.

Now, supposedly, 'errors are piling up' and the BCCI is complaining about a lack of consistency in implementation from country to country and apparently they should feel vindicated? Aside from the the fact that errors are not 'piling up' (the error rate has actually decreased), if there's a problem with consistent application of Hawkeye, it's because the BCCI and their voting bloc made it so by taking Hawkeye out of the compulsory list.

Sigh!!
The consistency in implementation of it and availability of different technologies in different parts of the world.

"From an umpiring perspective, as a third umpire, it is incredibly challenging here [in Sri Lanka] because the frame rates used by Ten Sports per second will be different to the ones used by Sky in Britain. There's ultra-motion available in the UK, there's none of that here. We have Hotspot in the UK, we don't have Hotspot here. The camera rates used by Hawk-Eye here would be different to the camera rates used there.

Yes, the lack of Hawkeye also contributes to in some part but it is not the only or the major factors by any means as you put it. There are several other problems too, then there is the security and testing issues with it as i said before.

Plus as this thread referred to there is a issue about implementation consistently by the third umpires and broadcasters too -

http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/2645154-post20.html

Hawkeye and the URDS in general aren't perfect but the numbers of mistakes measurably decreases when they're being used. That they're not 100% error-free (yet) is neither here nor there.

Nobody is saying it shouldn't be used for Howlers and blunders or that the whole system should be canned though(and most times so many technologies are even not required for those).
The only doubts are regarding marginal calls and how to set in specific parameters and safeguards into the system wherein we are not just blindly not relying on faulty technology and using it in specific circumstances only.

 

[Cevno]

And incidentally, India agreed to using "infra-red cameras and audio-tracking devices" - yet we now hear moans about the audio tracking device when it showed Dravid to nick one.

Like England did when Hotspot didn't show Laxman to nick it and checked for Vaseline after claiming the system was useless without it?

Btw, the problem was with the implementation and how it was done(without adhering to directive and consistency) to overturn a decision, than anything else in the case you are referring too even if we apply that flawed logic.

 

[Burgey]

Yep. And zero correct decisions wrongfully changed.

What a terrible blight on the game.

Mike Hussey would beg to differ.

 

[Jacknife]

What the hell does Hotspot have to do with Hawkeye though?

There was a human differentiation and error like the one against Dravid the other day, with the feed the broadcasters being allegedly less loud than the one being broadcasted. Again comes down to inconsistencies implementation and not any lack of technology.

FFS what''s up with you are being deliberately obtuse , you brought up the SA series here

Because the ECB Chairman way back during the SA tour more than a year and a half back said that the system was absolutely useless without Hotspot .

where hotspot wasn't available, all I said is they had use of just Hawkeye in that series, that's all I said about it.

The only way they have anything to do with each other is if you are using every piece of technology, like England have done recently and will in the future.

 

[Top_Cat]

Yes, the lack of Hawkeye also contributes to in some part but it is not the only or the major factors by any means as you put it. There are several other problems too, then there is the security and testing issues with it as i said before.

BCCI has been the only country to bring up security. Even then, it strikes me as weird that there'd be some malicious use of it for......what exactly? Have they received any credible threats for anything? Are they worried about indistrial expionage, malicious VirtualEye employees getting behind the laptop where Hawkeye is being used?

The testing point is a non sequitur, tbh. Who'lll test the various systems and how? Will anyone but the makers have the expertise to do so? If all the evidence points to the the system reducing the number of errors, where's the actual motivation to pay for expensive tests to prove what we already know (i.e. that the system is better than not having it, isn't perfect, will get better as camera technology/calculations do)?

The point is, many of the issues brought up by the BCCI have been exaccerbated or invented by them.

 

[Cevno]

FFS what''s up with you are being deliberately obtuse , you brought up the SA series here

where hotspot wasn't available, all I said is they had use of just Hawkeye in that series, that's all I said about it

You said this -

Well that was when the ECB wanted the whole use of the technology, not a hybrid system and there's no doubt Hotspot has proved valuable many times since then but to use it solely is lacking to say the least.

Now you weren't referring to the Snicko here as i assumed,neither the Hawkeye(Not that it can be used alongside Hotspot for Catches and caught behind in anycase) so what were you referring too?

Any new technology you have been working on in your garage?

 

[Jacknife]

You said this -





Now you weren't referring to the Snicko here as i assumed,neither the Hawkeye(Not that it can be used alongside Hotspot for Catches and caught behind in anycase) so what were you referring too?

Any new technology you have been working on in your garage?

No, but give me a week or two I could come up with a contraption of some sort to try out..
I'm not saying Hotspot is lacking although it is sometimes, I was saying that just using the one piece of technology instead of the full system is lacking.

 

[uvelocity]

Wonder what will happen this summer in OZ with regard to DRS? Have to say the results of it have been terrible in the current series in Sri Lanka.

I'd rather see the TV umpire quickly look at each wicket as the batsman walks off, there is enough time to detect a shocker as he walks and tell him to hold up. As to close decisions, let them stand either way.

BCCI Annual General Meeting: BCCI opposed to DRS in its current form | India Cricket News | ESPN Cricinfo

The BCCI will, at the next ICC meeting, raise the issue. We want to revisit it because we feel that Hot Spot is insufficient. We do not wish to use the DRS in its present form, even in its minimum standard."

 

[Furball]

They should be told in no uncertain terms to **** off.

 

[GotSpin]

A side of me really wants no DRS for the series here