***Official*** Australia in the West Indies 2012

[Jayzamann]

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well that worked out

ironyyyyyyyy

 

[Dan]

Excuse me how do you know about what players are doing in the caribbean? are you some expert on our domestic cricket now? let me explain it to you again...HOLDER WAS JUST THE BEST PACER of the last four day competition in the group stages, he got 23 wickets at an average of 18, he's also played for the A-team several times and has taken wickets, to suggest his record is the norm in the caribbean for a pacer is simply NOT TRUE, Sammy and Holder both played in the domestic competition and Holder was outperforming him,

Regardless of where cricket is going on, I try and keep up with scores, performers and whatnot (apart from the SL stuff, could never follow all those teams). This wonderful thing called the internet means I can have an understanding of non-Australian players, and you can have an understanding of non-WI cricket. I don't think anyone can simply disregard someone's opinion simply because they are not living in the Carribbean.

Nathan Rimmington was one of, if not the best pacer in our domestic 4 day comp. If he comes anywhere near the Australian test side, John Inverarity's head would roll.

Yes, Holder performed well, and that was duly rewarded with a spot in the side to play the Australians (was it West Indies A or a Chairman's XI, memory escapes me). However, Richardson and Bernard both took more wickets at better averages (slightly lower wickets per match though), his statistics were very similar to McClean, and Tonge had a better WPM and average. I never said he was far and away the best, but there's 4 pacemen with comparable records during the season, in terms of statistical outcomes.

Then we have Carlos Brathwaite, he was the best pacer in 2011 when he got 26 wickets on his debut season, he's also played for WI already in a t20 and one day game in Bangladash and spent a few years playing in Ireland, meanwhile Russell's record speaks for it's self and he's played several times for WI, and both Russell and Brathwaite have have performed outside of the caribbean so your second point isn't accurate, as for Miller, well he's a domestic bully like many are in the region, but just because there's bullys in the region it doesn't mean none of them can be good enough to make it at international level, Narine is a huge bully domestically but he's also bullying everyone else aswell,

My apologies on the 'aren't necessarily going to be that good at International level' line, it really should be more along the lines of 'aren't necessarily going to outperform Sammy against Australia at this point in time'. My bad, I'll concede that segment of the argument.

Sammy is just a hit and hope type of guy and he fails more often than not, look how many games he's played for us and yet he only has one test 50 to his name? that's poor, Brathwaite is good enough to be a middle order batsman, he got a 81 not out vs England lions in 2011 and has 50s at A-team level aswell, while Holder has got four 40s in his last six games, one coming against Australia in the warm up game (49) ,

I know you haven't explicitly mentioned him in this segment, but just a point on Russell's FC record - he's made 565 runs with two centuries and no 50s. That means nearly 40% of his overall run tally has come in two innings. Call me crazy, but is that all that different to Sammy - will either come off and make a big one, or fall pretty early.

You're NOT a WI fan, so of course you're not seeing the bigger picture.. , go look back at his recent performances in both the tests and the one day games and you'll see he's under bowling himself, it was HIM who said he was the "work horse for the bowling unit".. so why the **** doesn't he BOWL then and take some responsibility? the barbados pitch wasn't that spin friendly and yet Deo still bowled more overs than him in the second innings, furthermore a bowlers job is to GET WICKETS, he's got three in three innings!!.. BLOODY GREAT ISN'T IT?

First Test: 1/4 of all pace overs delivered in the first innings makes sense, given he's the supporting seamer whereas Roach and Edwards are the strike bowlers (and Roach has been bowling quite well). Sammy bowls long spells and creates pressure - he has a role in the side. Then he bowled pretty well in the second innings, got the first breakthrough, and was economical. Note that he got Warner twice, and Cowan as his other victim - high(er) quality wickets.

1st ODI: 8 overs 0/30. Not really underbowling there - his other bowlers were economical, and the ones that weren't took the wickets. Then made a quick 35 that more-or-less delayed the inevitable, but defeat can't exactly be blamed on him.

2nd ODI: 4 overs, 1/19 (max 8) He had 7 bowlers in the side - somebody has to miss out, and everyone was doing their job for him. Arguably he should have had 2 more of Bravo's overs, but its marginal I guess.

3rd ODI: 5 overs, 1/27. Was a bit more expensive that his other bowlers, and in a match where every run counted, you can hardly blame him for bowling the guys who were tying Australia up more.

4th ODI: 9 overs, 2/42. Probably would have bowled himself out if the Australian innings lasted until 50 overs.

5th ODI: 6 overs, 0/29 Bowled the expensive Roach and Russell as they were taking wickets. Samuels was very economical in comparison. Someone has to give up a few overs (again, would have given Sammy a couple more of Bravo's, but hey).

Arguably he did bowl himself for a few less overs than he should have, but it isn't as ridiculous as you make out. When you have 7 bowling options in the side, and Roach bowling as well as he has been, someone will miss out on overs. Generally, if the captain bowls, it will be him. Steve Waugh (an excellent death bowler, FTR), Allan Border, Michael Clarke, Ricky Ponting et al. have all underbowled themselves as captain. Its what tends to happen.

Deonarine bowled more in the second innings because he was causing batsmen headaches. Its the logical thing to do. The thought process is not "They're chasing 130 in this session, and they can't get this guy away and he's taking wickets. I'll take him off and bowl myself instead".

Cricket is not as black-and-white as every individual who bowls well will take bags of wickets. Sammy has a role to bowl long spells into the wind - which fits the dictionary definition of workhorse, btw - and keep things tight. Wickets come as a result of this pressure, but not necessarily to him. His pressure can make batsmen take risks against Roach, Deonarine, Shillingford .etc and get out to them. He could beat the bat, but not quite find the edge. Catches can be dropped, edges can fall short. You're oversimplifying things.

What on earth are you talking about? i merely said if he's fed up of WI fans moaning about Sammy then he's welcome to focus on his own team instead of ours, i'd have thought that's the only logical thing to do.

"Stability"? let me remind you that HALF OF OUR BEST PLAYERS ARE MISSING!!.. so there's nothing "stable" here, Sammy's become a liability with everything he does for this team and if we wish to move forward then he must be dropped imo, in closing i have to be honest and say i find it hilarious how some none WI fans think they know whats best for WI more than WI fans do!!!..oh man!!.. i think i'm gonna go and tell the India fans exactly what's wrong with their team now!!! .

So Chris Gayle is suddenly half the side? You could argue Marlon Samuels counts as well, but even then Narsingh Deonarine has done a better job in that role than he would have anyway.

I'm not going in to Narine again, its flogging a dead horse.

And yes, stability. After the entire team walked out after the WIPA/WICB problem, Sammy managed to take over the side, and results improved exponentially. There is enough off-field drama going on as it is, with Gayle and IPL and whatever, the last thing the team needs is a sudden, dramatic and major change that is a mid-series change of captaincy. It doesn't work. England tried it a few times in doomed Ashes series of days gone by - more trouble that it's worth. New captains work differently, it takes time to get used to one at training, everyone ends up with a different role in the side and has new expectations put upon them. Right now, everyone knows where they stand under Sammy.

Russell, Braithwaite or Holder may do fractionally better than Sammy if they come in - but even then, a baptism of fire against a momentum-charged Australian side is hardly ideal, and very difficult (Shane Bond in 2001/02 anyone) - and having a complete change of leadership at the same time wouldn't help.

Holder does look to be a talent, and I hope he ends up a damn good test bowler in the long run, but he fulfills a different role as a cricketer to Sammy. Quite simply, Sammy is best placed to continue to lead the West Indies. While the entire landscape changes, you want continuity in leadership.

 

[Johnners]

Patto

Also, wasn't aware WW owned the WI team, and is therefore the only person allowed to comment on it.

 

[Spikey]

Looking forward to Starc taking 15 wickets in the 3rd test

 

[Flem274*]

Sammy is a hero. I hope he stays in the Windies team for ages. Medium pace represent.

 

[WindieWeathers]

Regardless of where cricket is going on, I try and keep up with scores, performers and whatnot (apart from the SL stuff, could never follow all those teams). This wonderful thing called the internet means I can have an understanding of non-Australian players, and you can have an understanding of non-WI cricket. I don't think anyone can simply disregard someone's opinion simply because they are not living in the Carribbean.

Sorry but the "internet" doesn't tell the full story, I'M ON THE GROUND WATCHING THESE PLAYERS, that's why i believe i'm in a position to judge whether these kids would be good enough to replace the likes of Sammy, meanwhile you downplayed their chances in favor of Sammy purely by the stats you've read online,

Nathan Rimmington was one of, if not the best pacer in our domestic 4 day comp. If he comes anywhere near the Australian test side, John Inverarity's head would roll.

What about Cummins? his four day record was garbage before he made his test debut, that's why stats isn't the only thing you can judge from,

Yes, Holder performed well, and that was duly rewarded with a spot in the side to play the Australians (was it West Indies A or a Chairman's XI, memory escapes me). However, Richardson and Bernard both took more wickets at better averages (slightly lower wickets per match though), his statistics were very similar to McClean, and Tonge had a better WPM and average. I never said he was far and away the best, but there's 4 pacemen with comparable records during the season, in terms of statistical outcomes.

Bernard and Richardson played more games than Holder, furthermore towards the latter stages of the competition they pretty much faced reserve sides due to most of the other teams losing players for international and IPL duty, i'll admit Tong was impressive, but he's already had his chance with WI and failed,

I know you haven't explicitly mentioned him in this segment, but just a point on Russell's FC record - he's made 565 runs with two centuries and no 50s. That means nearly 40% of his overall run tally has come in two innings. Call me crazy, but is that all that different to Sammy - will either come off and make a big one, or fall pretty early.

Just watch both of them bat and you'll see there's a huge difference in class, Russell's average should really be a lot higher but he hasn't been playing many four day games for Jamaica of late due to his international call ups, but there's no doubt he can play a long innings when he's in the mood, he got a ton vs Bangedash-A in December,

First Test: 1/4 of all pace overs delivered in the first innings makes sense, given he's the supporting seamer whereas Roach and Edwards are the strike bowlers (and Roach has been bowling quite well). Sammy bowls long spells and creates pressure - he has a role in the side. Then he bowled pretty well in the second innings, got the first breakthrough, and was economical. Note that he got Warner twice, and Cowan as his other victim - high(er) quality wickets.

And what i'm saying is THAT'S NOT GOOD ENOUGH, we need wickets, the "pressure" stuff is nothing but a fallacy these days, i can't recall many teams having a seamer who's only job is to create "pressure" , at the end of the day wickets win games, Rampaul gets them, Roach is now getting them again but the only one who is spoiling the party is Sammy, the great Marshall would be laughing right now seeing Sammy in this team,

Arguably he did bowl himself for a few less overs than he should have, but it isn't as ridiculous as you make out. When you have 7 bowling options in the side, and Roach bowling as well as he has been, someone will miss out on overs. Generally, if the captain bowls, it will be him. Steve Waugh (an excellent death bowler, FTR), Allan Border, Michael Clarke, Ricky Ponting et al. have all underbowled themselves as captain. Its what tends to happen.

The difference is the likes of Waugh were great captains, SAMMY ISN'T, so to justify his place in the team he needs to make an impact somewhere in the game, but lately all he's been doing is hiding from the bowling, making p/ss poor shots and dropping vital catches, no wonder you're defending the man!! ,

Deonarine bowled more in the second innings because he was causing batsmen headaches. Its the logical thing to do. The thought process is not "They're chasing 130 in this session, and they can't get this guy away and he's taking wickets. I'll take him off and bowl myself instead".

The problem is the trend has continued and Deo bowled more overs than him AGAIN in the first innings of this second test!!.. even when the ball wasn't spinning that much, it's just pathetic and many WI fans believe he's trying to protect his average,

Cricket is not as black-and-white as every individual who bowls well will take bags of wickets. Sammy has a role to bowl long spells into the wind - which fits the dictionary definition of workhorse, btw - and keep things tight. Wickets come as a result of this pressure, but not necessarily to him. His pressure can make batsmen take risks against Roach, Deonarine, Shillingford .etc and get out to them. He could beat the bat, but not quite find the edge. Catches can be dropped, edges can fall short. You're oversimplifying things.

So where was this "pressure" when we let the Australian tail wag for over 100 runs in the first test? where was this "pressure" when we let it wag again in this second test? the game is about results, his "pressure" obviously isn't working against the Aussies and to add insult to injury he's not taking wickets either, that's why many want rid of him now,

So Chris Gayle is suddenly half the side? You could argue Marlon Samuels counts as well, but even then Narsingh Deonarine has done a better job in that role than he would have anyway.

I'm not going in to Narine again, its flogging a dead horse.

Erm.....

Gayle
Kirk Edwards (for this test)
Ramdin
Narine (whatever you think he is by far our best spinner and would be playing right now if the bloody IPL didn't get in the way)
Rampaul
Taylor
Samuels
Russell (he's played a test aswell)

And yes, stability. After the entire team walked out after the WIPA/WICB problem, Sammy managed to take over the side, and results improved exponentially. There is enough off-field drama going on as it is, with Gayle and IPL and whatever, the last thing the team needs is a sudden, dramatic and major change that is a mid-series change of captaincy. It doesn't work. England tried it a few times in doomed Ashes series of days gone by - more trouble that it's worth. New captains work differently, it takes time to get used to one at training, everyone ends up with a different role in the side and has new expectations put upon them. Right now, everyone knows where they stand under Sammy.

Well firstly i'm talking about dropped him for the next series and beyond, but if he is dropped for the next test i would be celebrating no doubt, secondly the Gayle situation has been sorted out, so that's not a problem anymore, i just hope that this is Sammy's mans last test series and we start a new dawn when we go to England in may, Ramdin being the perfect choice, some results may have improved since he took over but the bottom line is we haven't beaten a top six side in a test series during his tenure, so what the hell have we got to lose by bringing in someone new? nothing,

Holder does look to be a talent, and I hope he ends up a damn good test bowler in the long run, but he fulfills a different role as a cricketer to Sammy. Quite simply, Sammy is best placed to continue to lead the West Indies. While the entire landscape changes, you want continuity in leadership.

Holder could very well be the next Ambrose, that's who he's being compared to, holding him back just so Sammy can lead us to nowhere is not the right thing to do imo, it's time to close this chapter and move on now, we've got nothing to lose, when our best team is on the field Sammy's deficiencies would be exposed even more i think.

 

[Arachnodouche]

yep I like sammy. sammy WAG

 

[WindieWeathers]

Sammy is a hero.

Yep, TO THE OPPOSITION!! , i'm sure you'll appreciate him even more when he drops McCallum or Taylor early!!.

 

[WindieWeathers]

Patto

Also, wasn't aware WW owned the WI team, and is therefore the only person allowed to comment on it.

I didn't say i owned the WI team , but it is a little silly when people who don't even watch our domestic cricket claim Holder, Brathwaite and co's average are "the norm" and they wouldn't be able to replace Sammy!!, you've at least got to SEE the players in action first before making such judgements imo.

 

[Spikey]

i've seen sammy in action as a bowler and captain and quite like him, ftr

 

[Dan]

Sorry but the "internet" doesn't tell the full story, I'M ON THE GROUND WATCHING THESE PLAYERS, that's why i believe i'm in a position to judge whether these kids would be good enough to replace the likes of Sammy, meanwhile you downplayed their chances in favor of Sammy purely by the stats you've read online,

What about Cummins? his four day record was garbage before he made his test debut, that's why stats isn't the only thing you can judge from,

Bernard and Richardson played more games than Holder, furthermore towards the latter stages of the competition they pretty much faced reserve sides due to most of the other teams losing players for international and IPL duty, i'll admit Tong was impressive, but he's already had his chance with WI and failed,

Just watch both of them bat and you'll see there's a huge difference in class, Russell's average should really be a lot higher but he hasn't been playing many four day games for Jamaica of late due to his international call ups, but there's no doubt he can play a long innings when he's in the mood, he got a ton vs Bangedash-A in December,


And what i'm saying is THAT'S NOT GOOD ENOUGH, we need wickets, the "pressure" stuff is nothing but a fallacy these days, i can't recall many teams having a seamer who's only job is to create "pressure" , at the end of the day wickets win games, Rampaul gets them, Roach is now getting them again but the only one who is spoiling the party is Sammy, the great Marshall would be laughing right now seeing Sammy in this team,

The difference is the likes of Waugh were great captains, SAMMY ISN'T, so to justify his place in the team he needs to make an impact somewhere in the game, but lately all he's been doing is hiding from the bowling, making p/ss poor shots and dropping vital catches, no wonder you're defending the man!! ,

The problem is the trend has continued and Deo bowled more overs than him AGAIN in the first innings of this second test!!.. even when the ball wasn't spinning that much, it's just pathetic and many WI fans believe he's trying to protect his average,

So where was this "pressure" when we let the Australian tail wag for over 100 runs in the first test? where was this "pressure" when we let it wag again in this second test? the game is about results, his "pressure" obviously isn't working against the Aussies and to add insult to injury he's not taking wickets either, that's why many want rid of him now,

Erm.....

Gayle
Kirk Edwards (for this test)
Ramdin
Narine (whatever you think he is by far our best spinner and would be playing right now if the bloody IPL didn't get in the way)
Rampaul
Taylor
Samuels
Russell (he's played a test aswell)

Well firstly i'm talking about dropped him for the next series and beyond, but if he is dropped for the next test i would be celebrating no doubt, secondly the Gayle situation has been sorted out, so that's not a problem anymore, i just hope that this is Sammy's mans last test series and we start a new dawn when we go to England in may, Ramdin being the perfect choice, some results may have improved since he took over but the bottom line is we haven't beaten a top six side in a test series during his tenure, so what the hell have we got to lose by bringing in someone new? nothing,

Holder could very well be the next Ambrose, that's who he's being compared to, holding him back just so Sammy can lead us to nowhere is not the right thing to do imo, it's time to close this chapter and move on now, we've got nothing to lose, when our best team is on the field Sammy's deficiencies would be exposed even more i think.

Cummins' four day record was rubbish, and I wasn't exactly keen on the idea of him being thrown into the mix straight away. Plus, he hasn't exactly repeated his feats as of yet - the jury is still out IMO.

I did quantify the Bernard and Richardson statement by saying they took less wickets per match, but the point of that is pretty much irrelevant - I never said Holder's record was inferior, but that others had similar statistics (i.e. my argument that Holder is by no means far and away statistically better than everyone around him, a point you've seemed intent on supporting).

Pressure is nothing but a fallacy? So you'd rather play a bowling attack of Roach, Edwards and Taylor - fast, dangerous, but leaking runs? Yet you completely ignore my point about pressure often helping the bowler down the other end take the wickets.

To use an Australian example again, we used to believe in the "Never play both Siddle and Johnson" rule, because, whilst having the ability to be individually brilliant in their own right, they wouldn't bowl sides out because there was always a bad ball coming - the pressure could always be relieved. Pressure is by no means a fallacy.

Look, spin has been successful in WI domestic cricket, and in the tests so far. I'm getting tired of repeating that using spinners on a spinners' track is not something to criticise Sammy for.

Seamers who create pressure aren't in Test sides? There was this guy by the name of McGrath who did it very well indeed. Shaun Pollock, even Courtney Walsh were guys who relied upon accuracy and creating pressure. Marshall created pressure. Ambrose created pressure. It just so happens that wickets keep falling at the other end in Sammy's case (and admittedly he's not nearly as good as any of the names mentioned). Pressure is an integral part of bowling.

BTW, people are allowed to bat well, you know. Sometimes teams can absorb pressure and just bat well. Even Marshall, Ambrose, Walsh et al. had runs scored against them at times by lower order batsmen, I'm sure (cbf statsguru-ing, I'm hopeless with all the parameters).

 

[Dan]

I didn't say i owned the WI team , but it is a little silly when people who don't even watch our domestic cricket claim Holder, Brathwaite and co's average are "the norm" and they wouldn't be able to replace Sammy!!, you've at least got to SEE the players in action first before making such judgements imo.

Yes, yes, I'm sorry. Clearly the majority of your pace bowlers are just statistical outliers.

FFS, you have 10 pace bowlers with same-ish stats for the season. Isn't that pretty much the definition of "the norm". Even though I never actually called it "the norm", and simply said that Holder's record wasn't as far above everyone else's as you like to claim.

Went and watched some YouTube videos of Holder at the U/19 WC in 2010. Uncanny resemblance to Ambrose in terms of action. Looked surprisingly slow, but undoubtedly that was just the video, and nothing to do with his actual bowling (not sarcasm this time, I promise).

 

[Dan]

i've seen sammy in action as a bowler and captain and quite like him, ftr

Big heart, TBH.

 

[Camo999]

He has limitations as a player but from my observations Sammy is a guy who is extremely passionate about West Indies cricket. His strength as a captain is to unite the team to compete hard - a pretty important role which I think he's doing quite well. Would be a massive step backwards to get rid of him at this stage in my opinion.

His bowling often looks average yet he always seems to do a reasonable job. Wouldn't mind seeing him go up to No 7 in tests ahead of Baugh and take on a bit more responsibility with the bat. I reckon he has the ability to play a few game changing innings like he did in the ODIs. When he does get going he always runs out of partners.

 

[Flem274*]

My eyes hurt.

 

[Kylez]

Sammy is a hero. I hope he stays in the Windies team for ages. Medium pace represent.

BUT YOU'RE NOT A WI FAN AND YOU WEREN'T AT THE GROUNDZZ.

#WindieWeathers

 

[LegionOfBrad]

Watching the UK sky sports coverage. Fair to say Colin Croft is not a fan of Otis Gibson. Almost sounds personal.

edit. apparently not as he just said "It's nothing personal i just don't see they point of head coaches at all."

A bit of a "back in my day" rant.

 

[stumpski]

Ian Harvey still thinks there could be a result in this game, despite yet another delayed start.

He's also talking about starting in 5 minutes, which clearly wouldn't be possible given that they're still inspecting.

 

[Spikey]

Peter Siddle has flown home from the tour with back complaint, and James Pattinson will follow him home after the match

Clearly those two should get the Harris treatment and be assumed of being incapable of playing two tests in a row by the media and selectors

 

[TT Boy]

Result is still possible (only for Aus) but that would need Clarke to declare when Aus get a 200 lead.

Highly improbable, as improbable as the Windies taking the remaining 7 wickets in less than 35 overs (needed if they are to win the game). Should just be two sessions and a bit for Ponting and co. to score some runs and Roach to get a five wicket haul.