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***Official*** Australia in South Africa 2018

MagicPoopShovel

U19 12th Man
Footage has gotten released showing the players walking off for tea where Warner is calling QDK a "f***ing sook"; so presumably that triggered a QDK response and it all disintegrated from there.

As an aside in that link, Robert Craddock calls QDK "a really simple lad". I think he means it sympathetically, but Craddock quite often seems to define cricketers from certain parts of the world in patronising and condescending terms.
Cheers

"And now de Kock’s sister, Dalean de Kock, has laid into the Australian opener on social media.

“Wtf (what the f**k) ! I’ll hurt you @davidwarner31,” Dalean de Kock wrote on Twitter, while quoting the extraordinary footage of the dressing room scuffle."

LOL
 

Gnske

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Footage has gotten released showing the players walking off for tea where Warner is calling QDK a "f***ing sook"; so presumably that triggered a QDK response and it all disintegrated from there.

As an aside in that link, Robert Craddock calls QDK "a really simple lad". I think he means it sympathetically, but Craddock quite often seems to define cricketers from certain parts of the world in patronising and condescending terms.
Yeah I noticed that, to be fair in becoming a journo you succumb to being a pretentious muppet til the end of your days.

Honestly, does anyone have any real sympathy for Warner at all?
 

SteveNZ

Cricketer Of The Year
This is classic SteveNZ


Yeah we're all bad people. What an idiot
Although I can't at all remember saying you're all bad people, I certainly believe your ****wit ratio is much, much higher than any other country I've been to or played cricket in. Still plenty of great people, so if you're one of those - well done. Certainly that ****wit theory of mine holds up very well in the small sample size of the national cricket side.
 

Victor Ian

International Coach
probably because all your ****wits come here to live to avoid the ****wits there, not realising the irony of settling amongst the same ****wits. But I suppose we have ****wits who let your ****wits in, so I guess you may have a point.
 

SteveNZ

Cricketer Of The Year
Nah we go that way for better paid jobs, given our economy is weak. We eventually return, with the common phrase heard in customs 'Australia's a great place to live, except too many Australians live there'. The ****wits stay, generally around the Gold Coast area.
 

SeamUp

International Coach
Always good to hear from Big Mac. Still used to see him in a box at Newlands with a few cold one's.

He brings up some good points

https://m.sport24.co.za/Cricket/Proteas/big-mac-to-shut-oz-up-beat-them-20180306

Oh to have this sledging around still. Him and Fanie were priceless.

Welkom-born and Carletonville-raised – neither a gentle place – “Big Mac” was SA’s primary, genuine all-rounder, a broad-shouldered fellow who wielded a broad, dogged bat and bowled a heavy ball.

And between him and the later to become legendary leg-spinning “Warney”, came probably the most captivating sledging of the six slugfests.

In the heat of one battle, McMillan had to scramble to stave off a run-out after a miscommunication with his partner, hastily ending up back at the end he’d set off from.

“Looks like you don’t fancy it very much, Depardieu (a suggestion McMillan vaguely resembled the French actor – Sport24),” reportedly observed Warne.

“Listen,” instantly fired back McMillan, “a lot of people go missing every day in South Africa and one more wouldn’t be noticed …”

There have been suggestions McMillan also volunteered – a proposal kindly rejected – to deploy Warne as bait on his next shark-fishing expedition.

But it gets even better … or at least more memorable, depending on whose side of the barrel you were. While the Australians lunched at the Wanderers Test, in marched a gun-toting McMillan, having borrowed the firearm from a nearby policeman.

“Right, I’ve had enough of you Australians,” he told the startled audience before him.

When the initial shock had subsided, and stumps later drawn, the incident was recalled with suitable amusement over bilateral dressing-room beers.
 

StephenZA

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Always good to hear from Big Mac. Still used to see him in a box at Newlands with a few cold one's.

He brings up some good points

https://m.sport24.co.za/Cricket/Proteas/big-mac-to-shut-oz-up-beat-them-20180306

Oh to have this sledging around still. Him and Fanie were priceless.
I think one of the problems with sledging is who does it.... when it comes down to personal insults and family and friends, if that is the best you've got you probably should not be doing it. But if you quick off the mark with some fast quips during the game, then sledge away.



And does this help or hinder Warners political chances in Aus?
 

GotSpin

Hall of Fame Member
Although I can't at all remember saying you're all bad people, I certainly believe your ****wit ratio is much, much higher than any other country I've been to or played cricket in. Still plenty of great people, so if you're one of those - well done. Certainly that ****wit theory of mine holds up very well in the small sample size of the national cricket side.
Your agenda against Australia has been going on for a while. I'm not sure if something happened to you or not though
 

StephenZA

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
What's the suspension threshold again?
4 naughty boy points....

And QDK is contesting his charge..... not sure how I feel about that, at this stage I probably would just let it go. Distraction for the team.

Also interesting to see what Chappell has said.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/22674045/smith-lehmann-culpable-warner-episode-chappell

Chappell said that administrators needed to act now to prevent the onset of violence on the field. "I've been saying for 15 years that there'll be fisticuffs at some point, and it must have come close in that stairwell. It's pretty obvious to me that the more you allow to be said on the field, the higher the chance that something personal will be said, and if it gets personal, you've got a situation on your hands..
This is the real issue.... it will escalate, it always does.
 
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Daemon

Request Your Custom Title Now!
I think QdK has probably contested it because there's no evidence of him saying anything personal (is that even against the rules) and he did nothing wrong from the footage in the stairwell.
 

OverratedSanity

Request Your Custom Title Now!
It wouldn't be a problem if cricketers would get more imaginative with their sledging. Say something witty which gets under an opponent's skin, (eg:Steyn saying he's got more runs than Nohit in a series) instead of resorting to what are essentially childish Yo mamma jokes.
 

StephenZA

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
It wouldn't be a problem if cricketers would get more imaginative with their sledging. Say something witty which gets under an opponent's skin, (eg:Steyn saying he's got more runs than Nohit in a series) instead of resorting to what are essentially childish Yo mamma jokes.
Are most cricketers smart enough to do this without getting personal?
 

Bolo

State Captain
4-7 logically makes more sense than 3-6. Why would you leave out no. 7 when analysing bowling the the middle order? Nonsensical. And no.3 comes out against the new ball very regularly.



Again, no. I didn't use Rabada or Cummins because they were change bowlers and (with Cummins at least) have usually been change bowlers, so of course they're going to have a higher percentage of middle order wickets compared to Starc. I picked other opening bowlers to compare to Starc, who also plays mostly as an opening bowler. (I think Morkel has been a change bowler a lot, but he opened this game which is why I chose him)

There was no bias here, stop trying to look for one because you'll get shot down every time. You're entire argument was based on a false assumption, just accept it and move on.
Don't you think there is a reason these guys are playing as opening/change bowlers? Players get selected as opening and change bowlers because of how well they bowl in those respective positions.

Rabada is a better opening bowler than Morkel (he has opened on numerous occasions). He bowls at the middle more because it is better for the team that he do so, because he is relatively better- a Philander/ KG opening combo would be better, but not so sufficiently better as to outweigh the change disadvantage. KG often bowls with an older ball because the others are worse with an older ball than he is.

I don't know how Cummins ranks as an opening bowler compared to his teammates, but he is bowling change at least in part because his teammates are poor at the middle. Marsh bowls at the middle because the relative disadvantage of having him bowl at the middle is less than the relative disadvantage if having him bowl at the top/tail- Starc and Hazelwood are significantly more likely than Marsh to take wickets with a moving ball but only slightly more likely to take wickets with a ball that is not moving, because they are significantly more effective with the moving ball and less effective with a ball that isn't moving.

Im not sure if you have encountered the term statistical bias before. It has a different meaning to bias in everyday speech, and is not an insult. Selection bias is at work here- choosing a sample of statistics that are not broadly representative of the entirety. I'm not saying the bias is intended, but there is always bias in stats, intentional or not. It is impossible to get a perfect representation of a sufficiently complex system. You seem to get the impression I'm accusing you of cherry picking based on a misunderstanding of the term.

You are comparing him to 2 bowlers who are similarly known to be good at the top and poor against the midde. Even if you compared him to every opening bowler ever there would still be bias- why only openers? Change bowlers bowl at the top order and opening bowlers bowl at the middle order with sufficient regularity to impact results, so why discard this information? Sure, you can argue that they have different roles, but you are just chosing between two different forms of bias here. How about spinners or medium pacers that opened the bowling...

Then you would want to filter for statistical noise (it's a different game to the 19th century...). But to do so introduces further bias.

Any selection of batting positions represents a bias. You can argue that your selection is a less imperfect selection, which I wouldn't disagree with, if for no other reason than the fact that I cherry picked mine. But you can't argue that it is a perfect selection. A number 3 can functionally be an opener (1st ball wicket) or a middle order player (long opening stand). A number 7 is not typically a batman, but can be specialist bat quality or not. And there are a practically unlimited number of other variables at play here. Would it make much of a difference here chosing 3-6 or 4-7. Likely not, or at least not compared to the bowlers selected, but this has no impact on it being an imperfect selection.

Stats are useful in cricket in that they can take out subjective (non-statistical) bias, but a much larger sample size is required in order to be statistically meaningful, and some level of subjective interpretation is still required. The less perfect the representation is (ie. your sample of a handful of bowlers), the greater the level of interpretation required becomes.

I've given you a logically coherent argument argument that you don't disagree with why Starc can't be very good without swing. You can determine pretty easily by eye that Starc isn't a great bowler without swing. Either of these alone should be sufficient to convince you that your reading of Starc's stats is a result of statistical bias and/or noise given how small the sample is.
 

quincywagstaff

International Debutant
In a funny sort of way, Warner getting 3 points and being on the verge of a suspension might be bigger challenge for him than if he'd gotten 4 points and a suspension.

With 3 points it will be now in the back of his mind that any minor slipup or confrontation could see him suspended, whereas with the 4 points at least he would've had a lot of leeway before another potential suspension (as occurred with Rabada).

It will be interesting how Australia behave in this upcoming Test. Tim Paine was defiant pre-punishment that Warner & the side had done virtually nothing wrong and it was South Africa who had "crossed the line"(™). But the fallout from this and the near-suspension of such a pivotal player surely must make them reassess (at least subconsciously) how they behave for the rest of the series.
 

StephenZA

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
In a funny sort of way, Warner getting 3 points and being on the verge of a suspension might be bigger challenge for him than if he'd gotten 4 points and a suspension.

With 3 points it will be now in the back of his mind that any minor slipup or confrontation could see him suspended, whereas with the 4 points at least he would've had a lot of leeway before another potential suspension (as occurred with Rabada).

It will be interesting how Australia behave in this upcoming Test. Tim Paine was defiant pre-punishment that Warner & the side had done virtually nothing wrong and it was South Africa who had "crossed the line"(™). But the fallout from this and the near-suspension of such a pivotal player surely must make them reassess (at least subconsciously) how they behave for the rest of the series.
I`m interested to see how the PE crowd treat Warner.... we are not normally that unruly, but you wonder if the band might come up with a few new songs?
 

TheJediBrah

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Don't you think there is a reason these guys are playing as opening/change bowlers? Players get selected as opening and change bowlers because of how well they bowl in those respective positions.

Rabada is a better opening bowler than Morkel (he has opened on numerous occasions). He bowls at the middle more because it is better for the team that he do so, because he is relatively better- a Philander/ KG opening combo would be better, but not so sufficiently better as to outweigh the change disadvantage. KG often bowls with an older ball because the others are worse with an older ball than he is.

I don't know how Cummins ranks as an opening bowler compared to his teammates, but he is bowling change at least in part because his teammates are poor at the middle. Marsh bowls at the middle because the relative disadvantage of having him bowl at the middle is less than the relative disadvantage if having him bowl at the top/tail- Starc and Hazelwood are significantly more likely than Marsh to take wickets with a moving ball but only slightly more likely to take wickets with a ball that is not moving, because they are significantly more effective with the moving ball and less effective with a ball that isn't moving.

Im not sure if you have encountered the term statistical bias before. It has a different meaning to bias in everyday speech, and is not an insult. Selection bias is at work here- choosing a sample of statistics that are not broadly representative of the entirety. I'm not saying the bias is intended, but there is always bias in stats, intentional or not. It is impossible to get a perfect representation of a sufficiently complex system. You seem to get the impression I'm accusing you of cherry picking based on a misunderstanding of the term.

You are comparing him to 2 bowlers who are similarly known to be good at the top and poor against the midde. Even if you compared him to every opening bowler ever there would still be bias- why only openers? Change bowlers bowl at the top order and opening bowlers bowl at the middle order with sufficient regularity to impact results, so why discard this information? Sure, you can argue that they have different roles, but you are just chosing between two different forms of bias here. How about spinners or medium pacers that opened the bowling...

Then you would want to filter for statistical noise (it's a different game to the 19th century...). But to do so introduces further bias.

Any selection of batting positions represents a bias. You can argue that your selection is a less imperfect selection, which I wouldn't disagree with, if for no other reason than the fact that I cherry picked mine. But you can't argue that it is a perfect selection. A number 3 can functionally be an opener (1st ball wicket) or a middle order player (long opening stand). A number 7 is not typically a batman, but can be specialist bat quality or not. And there are a practically unlimited number of other variables at play here. Would it make much of a difference here chosing 3-6 or 4-7. Likely not, or at least not compared to the bowlers selected, but this has no impact on it being an imperfect selection.

Stats are useful in cricket in that they can take out subjective (non-statistical) bias, but a much larger sample size is required in order to be statistically meaningful, and some level of subjective interpretation is still required. The less perfect the representation is (ie. your sample of a handful of bowlers), the greater the level of interpretation required becomes.

I've given you a logically coherent argument argument that you don't disagree with why Starc can't be very good without swing. You can determine pretty easily by eye that Starc isn't a great bowler without swing. Either of these alone should be sufficient to convince you that your reading of Starc's stats is a result of statistical bias and/or noise given how small the sample is.
No set of data in this sort of discussion is going to be perfect, I selected the closest possible. For example, comparing him to the other opening bowlers rather than the change bowlers, and selecting 4-7 because it seemed more relevant to the actual discussion. 3-7 would have worked too but considering how often early wickets fall and no.3 comes out against the new ball I considered it best to be left out. And not including no.7, as was done in the initial analysis, is a clear error in sampling IMO. Unless a team plays 5 genuine bowlers then no.7 is always a decent bat.

I just don't think there's any evidence that Starc is worse against the middle-order than his contemporaries. I understand all the reasoning you've put forward to why you think so, but I'm just not sure it's actually based in fact. I don't completely disagree though. He's a swing bowler, he uses swing (regular and reverse) more than a Cummins-type bowler. This is just common sense. If you're just trying to say that he's less effective when the ball isn't swinging, that's great, so are most bowlers.

As I said before as well, a better stat would be his averages against each position (ie. runs scored divided by wickets taken) rather than pure percentage of wickets. I think that would show better his utility against the tail compared to other bowlers, which was the initial point of the discussion.

edit: and if we're going to continue this discussion we should try keep responses shorter. I'm not going to lie, I didn't read your whole post. It was massive.
 
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