*Official* 2nd Test at Lord's

[Pothas]

What format was he playing in when you saw him?

First class. Admittedly it was just a few overs at the end of the day but his record for Hampshire since he came back from injury has been fairly poor. He was not awful or anything, they played and missed a couple of times, there was just a 4 ball (usually too full) in every over. To put it into context Toby Roland Jones looked fantastic on that pitch. Bird is obviously a good bowler but he was not even expected to be fit yet so it is not a huge surprise he has struggled a bit.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Yeah but the lack of application stems in the technical and cultural. There are reasons why so few Aussies in Test history have good records in England and it's the same reasons why so many foreign players fail when they go to OZ; lack of familiarity with the conditions and ability to adapt quickly enough to them. That we saw so many guys in the 90's and 00's who could do well over there was basically a purple patch. Very, very few cricketers have genuine all-wicket games.

Same thing of course applies to bowlers and I think we see that phenomenon in Australia (foreign players failing when touring) a bit more with bowlers here. Bowlers can generally adapt pretty well to bowling in England (Johnson probably a counter-example) but a lot of bowlers come to Australia and struggle a lot.

 

[NUFAN]

First class. Admittedly it was just a few overs at the end of the day but his record for Hampshire since he came back from injury has been fairly poor. He was not awful or anything, they played and missed a couple of times, there was just a 4 ball (usually too full) in every over. To put it into context Toby Roland Jones looked fantastic on that pitch. Bird is obviously a good bowler but he was not even expected to be fit yet so it is not a huge surprise he has struggled a bit.

I didn't really expect, he isn't known as a 4-ball bowler. Bird realistically needs a few 5-7 wicket hauls in the Shield to get the selectors interested again, IMO.

 

[Son Of Coco]

Yeah but the lack of application stems in the technical and cultural. There are reasons why so few Aussies in Test history have good records in England and it's the same reasons why so many foreign players fail when they go to OZ; lack of familiarity with the conditions and ability to adapt quickly enough to them. That we saw so many guys in the 90's and 00's who could do well over there was basically a purple patch. Very, very few cricketers have genuine all-wicket games.

The flat-batted mows we saw from a couple of them were pretty mystifying though. It's fair enough if you're beaten on a deck you can't handle, but when you haven't even given yourself a chance to get in it just looks really poor.

 

[wpdavid]

Yeah but the lack of application stems in the technical and cultural. There are reasons why so few Aussies in Test history have good records in England and it's the same reasons why so many foreign players fail when they go to OZ; lack of familiarity with the conditions and ability to adapt quickly enough to them. That we saw so many guys in the 90's and 00's who could do well over there was basically a purple patch. Very, very few cricketers have genuine all-wicket games.

I'm not sure I completely agree with the bit about not many Aus bowlers having good track records in England. From memory, the stand-out examples are Thomson and Johnson, for all the obvious reasons. Maybe Pascoe too, but I think he only played over here the once, and I can't really recall how well he went. But I reckon they are the exception rather than the rule. Beyond them, there's are hell of a lot who have caused us massive problems since I've been watching the game. Conditions in Cardiff were somewhat extreme, so I don't see why Haze. and Starc shouldn't do well at Lord's

 

[Top_Cat]

The flat-batted mows we saw from a couple of them were pretty mystifying though. It's fair enough if you're beaten on a deck you can't handle, but when you haven't even given yourself a chance to get in it just looks really poor.

Bad, yes. Mystifying, I don't believe so. You see the same guys playing those shots in OZ, just that they scores runs with them down under. That the lack the self-awareness to change that aspect of their game is a limitation and they should not be immune from criticism for it but it's a reflection of where they built their games.

And this is why all the blokes who can/did change their games to suit English conditions should be rated higher. Guys like SWaugh, for example, knew he couldn't be as expansive in England and had to make his cut shot count whereas Haddin blindly plays his mow like he's done a thousand times before and pays the price. Their respective records reflect this.

 

[Top_Cat]

I'm not sure I completely agree with the bit about not many Aus bowlers having good track records in England. From memory, the stand-out examples are Thomson and Johnson, for all the obvious reasons. Maybe Pascoe too, but I think he only played over here the once, and I can't really recall how well he went. But I reckon they are the exception rather than the rule. Beyond them, there's are hell of a lot who have caused us massive problems since I've been watching the game. Conditions in Cardiff were somewhat extreme, so I don't see why Haze. and Starc shouldn't do well at Lord's

I was talking about bats only as that's who SoC was talking about. Bowling is a different story.

 

[Top_Cat]

Why do you think we're so much more likely to see teams change the attack to suit conditions, but not the batting order?

Because batsmen are ****ing prima donnas.

 

[wpdavid]

I was talking about bats only as that's who SoC was talking about. Bowling is a different story.

Sorry, I misunderstood.

 

[Furball]

Same thing of course applies to bowlers and I think we see that phenomenon in Australia (foreign players failing when touring) a bit more with bowlers here. Bowlers can generally adapt pretty well to bowling in England (Johnson probably a counter-example) but a lot of bowlers come to Australia and struggle a lot.

In England it tends to happen with spinners. People love to go 'lol England can't play spin' but you look at the spinners who tie English batsmen in knots at home - they turn up for Tests in England and get smashed.

Speaking of horses for courses a shock bowler like Johnson tends not to be suited to England but 2nd dig he actually seemed to be able to swing the ball at will. His poor match figures are a departure from the norm in England where he's bowled utter ****e. He had one of those games where he wasn't dreadful but at the same time didn't particularly look threatening either. He could still be of use this series.

 

[Furball]

Bad, yes. Mystifying, I don't believe so. You see the same guys playing those shots in OZ, just that they scores runs with them down under. That the lack the self-awareness to change that aspect of their game is a limitation and they should not be immune from criticism for it but it's a reflection of where they built their games.

And this is why all the blokes who can/did change their games to suit English conditions should be rated higher. Guys like SWaugh, for example, knew he couldn't be as expansive in England and had to make his cut shot count whereas Haddin blindly plays his mow like he's done a thousand times before and pays the price. Their respective records reflect this.

Pretty much all your 90s guys spent seasons playing County Cricket didn't they? The only notable Aussie bats I can think of in the last 10 years have been Hussey, who played 1 series in the midst of a really bad form slump, and Hughes, and we'll never know how he might have turned out. Even the likes of Ponting actually don't have that great a record in England.

 

[Spark]

Clarke's record in England is okay. Not amazing, but okay.

 

[91Jmay]

Clarke played at Hampshire for a season as well.

 

[Furball]

Clarke's record in England is okay. Not amazing, but okay.

I was going to say Clarke's another one who's Ashes record isn't as great as perceived but his record in England will be dragged down by 05 won't it.

 

[Pothas]

All the top 6 apart from Warner have played county cricket, some of them a good deal of it.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Clarke's record in England is okay. Not amazing, but okay.

Clarke's record in literally every country except Australia is how you described it. It's pretty good, in that he's no true HTB but it's nowhere near truly great either.

 

[morgieb]

All the top 6 apart from Warner have played county cricket, some of them a good deal of it.

Smith never played FC cricket in England.

 

[Gob]

Man can't wait for Cummo to make his debut in Lords, give a working ovet to root, take a six fer, hit the winning runs and then not play another test for 3 years.

 

[Pothas]

Smith never played FC cricket in England.

Oh yeah fair point. 4 out of 6 is not bad though, probably more than most touring sides.

 

[Son Of Coco]

Because batsmen are ****ing prima donnas.

They're also dumber than bowlers...despite popular opinion to the contrary.

This doesn't have much to do with changing the order, but I think it has a fair bit to do with them not adapting.