ODIs : Kapil Dev vs Imran Khan

[subshakerz]

It's notable but less than you would expect between a middle order innings builder and a late order basher; especially given the SR difference.
I addressed it actually. Dev was the guy who changed late order scoring so much that completely won't be an overstatement.

But the middle order role is more valuable.

If you look at Imran's batting positions, his averages goes up as he goes up the order, but scoring rate naturally goes down as the times dictated.

This almost feels like penalising him for being too competent a bat that Kapil was not.

 

[subshakerz]

But the later came at the end of the innings, almost regularly. And I would value a quick shot run a ball 24 down the order more than a 33 in the middle with a decent SR.

Again you are ignoring that this is an incredibly bowling friendly era where teams are regularly being bundled for 150 or less against quality attacks.

Being able to build an innings and ensure it lasts the full 50 overs was considered the most important task.

 

[DrWolverine]

In an all time one day eleven, Imran or Kapil are going to play at either position 6 or 7 and I would prefer an explosive lower order batsman

 

[capt_Luffy]

Again you are ignoring that this is an incredibly bowling friendly era where teams are regularly being bundled for 150 or less against quality attacks.

Being able to build an innings and ensure it lasts the full 50 overs was considered the most important task.

Again, you are forgetting that, Kapil was how big a revolutionary of the game. In many ways more than even Viv, who couldn't be imitated but just fawned upon. Kapil was followed by almost every team having a basher down the order, to various degrees of success. I think despite everything; 24 of 25 down the order is more valuable, in any era, more often than not over 33 in 45. Also, on accounting for Imran as a proper middle order batter, his RPI is really a little too on the weaker side. He has more not ours than Kapil despite batting in ¾ of the innings.

 

[h_hurricane]

Imran was too for most of his career though except the fag end.


50 games is only a minor portion of Kapils career.

Looks at Imran's stats from the 80s when he averaged 22 with the ball and 33 with the bat over 124 games.

All-round records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Bottomline he was worldclass for a much longer period and a longer portion of his career.


Imran's bowling record also got wrecked by playing longer as a pure bat in the 90s.

Problem is posters here are ignoring the 80s context which was ODI infancy and more bowling friendly. Building an innings slowly and ensuring less loss of wickets until the end was considered an important skill and Imran was near specialist enough to be promoted up the order rather than restricted to cameos towards the end.

It would be a mistake to reward fast late order scoring without recognizing that the era valued Imran type bats more.

If Kapil had batted like Imran, India would not have won 1983 WC. And if Imran had batted like Kapil, Pakistan would not have 1992 WC. They brought different skills to the table. Rating one over the other is purely subjective.

I am not the one who will go by mere averages in ODIs. Averages combined with SR gives you a better picture imo, which is why I said it is close.

Kapil at his best was the perfect ODI allrounder, more like Botham at his best was the perfect test allrounder. Great bowling average, great bowling SR, Good batting average, phenomenal batting SR. Very good fielder too. Couldn't have asked for anything more.

Also, I agreed that it is fair to rate Imran higher. Just no run away winner here unlike tests.

 

[DrWolverine]

Kapil at his best was the perfect ODI allrounder, more like Botham at his best was the perfect test allrounder.

Great bowling average, great bowling SR, Good batting average, phenomenal batting SR. Very good fielder too. Couldn't have asked for anything more.

Agreed

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Wisden ODI cricketer of the decade 1980s - Kapil Dev

Ranked number 1 almost 10 years

World Record holder of highest score and most wickets..

Kapil > Imran

Akram
Sachin
Viv
Dhoni
KAPIL

Garner
Abdv
Gilly
Mcgrath
Kohli

Klusner
Jayasuriya
Donald
Lara
Hadlee

Starc
Ponting
Pollock
Saqlain
Bevan

G.Chappell
IMRAN
Murali
Watson
Abbas

 

[subshakerz]

If Kapil had batted like Imran, India would not have won 1983 WC. And if Imran had batted like Kapil, Pakistan would not have 1992 WC. They brought different skills to the table. Rating one over the other is purely subjective.

I am not the one who will go by mere averages in ODIs. Averages combined with SR gives you a better picture imo, which is why I said it is close.

Kapil at his best was the perfect ODI allrounder, more like Botham at his best was the perfect test allrounder. Great bowling average, great bowling SR, Good batting average, phenomenal batting SR. Very good fielder too. Couldn't have asked for anything more.

Also, I agreed that it is fair to rate Imran higher. Just no run away winner here unlike tests.

That's fine. As long as we admit like Botham we are judging Kapil on peak and not necessarily career and that Imran was more consistent.

 

[subshakerz]

Again, you are forgetting that, Kapil was how big a revolutionary of the game. In many ways more than even Viv, who couldn't be imitated but just fawned upon. Kapil was followed by almost every team having a basher down the order, to various degrees of success. I think despite everything; 24 of 25 down the order is more valuable, in any era, more often than not over 33 in 45. Also, on accounting for Imran as a proper middle order batter, his RPI is really a little too on the weaker side. He has more not ours than Kapil despite batting in ¾ of the innings.

Ok. The way I see it, Imran would rank higher if we judge by combined batting bowling ability and Kapil by modern standards. I can agree Kapil may likely feature if we are asking for a specific lower order no.7/8.

I would compare Imran's batting output by the batting standards of no.5/6s on the time.