ODIs : Kapil Dev vs Imran Khan

[DrWolverine]

Imran
Batting average : 33.4
Batting strike rate : 72.6
Bowling average : 26.6
Bowling economy rate :

Kapil
Batting average : 23.8
Batting strike rate : 95.07
Bowling average : 27.4
Bowling economy rate : 3.7

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Earlier I used to be sure, but Subz had some decent arguments

 

[ankitj]

We already have a thread

Niazi vs. Nikhanj

Two famous cricketers to debut in 70s. Who was better?

www.cricketweb.net

 

[DrWolverine]

W

Earlier I used to be sure, but Subz had some decent arguments

What argument?

 

[DrWolverine]

Unpopular opinion : Kapil Dev has a better chance to be picked in a ODI ATG team over Imran Khan

 

[subshakerz]

Imran a better bat and bowler.

Imran until the last three years when he played as a bat was a worldclass bowler.

Imran as a bat even until then could bat in the top six, unlike Kapil, and was capable of.hitting sixes if needed.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Unpopular opinion : Kapil Dev has a better chance to be picked in a ODI ATG team over Imran Khan

It is like, the most popular opinion.

Imran Khan vs Kapil Dev (ODIs)

Two World Cup winning captains of the two most underdog WC winning teams, who elevated their performance in times of absolute crisis. Ofcourse it's not close in a Test comparison (duhhh); but I think they are very close as ODI bowlers, Imran better captain while Kapil better fielder; and while I...

www.cricketweb.net

Still think it's Dev. Imran was a decent middle order batsman, but I don't agree he was necessarily better due to average. Re bowlers, also would place Kapil just higher, but both are really around equal.

 

[h_hurricane]

Kapil, at a point when he crossed 100 wickets was averaging below 24 too.

Also had a phase of 50 matches in mid 80s where he took 73 wickets at 20.30 and ER of 3.50 and 1000+ runs at over 30 and a SR of over 100. Basically covered all statistical parameters of batting and bowling in this phase.

Bowling records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

His career averages got wrecked by playing every other ODI. His ODI career looks a bit similar to Botham's test career. Early greatness and then fading away. He edges this comparison imo, though Imran has a fair case too.

 

[subshakerz]

Kapil, at a point when he crossed 100 wickets was averaging below 24 too.

Imran was too for most of his career though except the fag end.

Also had a phase of 50 matches in mid 80s where he took 73 wickets at 20.30 and ER of 3.50 and 1000+ runs at over 30 and a SR of over 100. Basically covered all statistical parameters of batting and bowling in this phase.

50 games is only a minor portion of Kapils career.

Looks at Imran's stats from the 80s when he averaged 22 with the ball and 33 with the bat over 124 games.

All-round records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Bottomline he was worldclass for a much longer period and a longer portion of his career.

His career averages got wrecked by playing every other ODI. His ODI career looks a bit similar to Botham's test career. Early greatness and then fading away. He edges this comparison imo, though Imran has a fair case too.

Imran's bowling record also got wrecked by playing longer as a pure bat in the 90s.

Problem is posters here are ignoring the 80s context which was ODI infancy and more bowling friendly. Building an innings slowly and ensuring less loss of wickets until the end was considered an important skill and Imran was near specialist enough to be promoted up the order rather than restricted to cameos towards the end.

It would be a mistake to reward fast late order scoring without recognizing that the era valued Imran type bats more.

 

[subshakerz]

It is like, the most popular opinion.

Imran Khan vs Kapil Dev (ODIs)

Two World Cup winning captains of the two most underdog WC winning teams, who elevated their performance in times of absolute crisis. Ofcourse it's not close in a Test comparison (duhhh); but I think they are very close as ODI bowlers, Imran better captain while Kapil better fielder; and while I...

www.cricketweb.net

Still think it's Dev. Imran was a decent middle order batsman, but I don't agree he was necessarily better due to average. Re bowlers, also would place Kapil just higher, but both are really around equal.

A 10 point average difference is too big to sway regardless of scoring rate frankly or eve if you think it's a tad inflated.

 

[capt_Luffy]

A 10 point average difference is too big to sway regardless of scoring rate frankly or eve if you think it's a tad inflated.

23 runs SR difference is also pretty hard to look past imo, especially down the order.

 

[subshakerz]

23 runs SR difference is also pretty hard to look past imo, especially down the order.

Yeah but you are ignoring era context which was more bowling friendly and lower scoring.

That era valued middle order conservative batting to build a platform much more than end innings late order hitting.

The former through partnerships and blunting the bowling helped ensure competitive scores of 200-250. Imran did that many times for Pakistan, though he was capable of accelerating moreso than guys like Miandad. Of course there were freaks like Zaheer Abbas and Viv who combined high output with high rate of scoring but that wasn't the norm.

Late order bats just had a more supplementary role.

Give that in mind, Imran being able to make it to the middle order while being a worldclass bowling was much more valuable.

 

[sayon basak]

We already have a thread

Niazi vs. Nikhanj

Two famous cricketers to debut in 70s. Who was better?

www.cricketweb.net

There were a lot of options in that poll.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Yeah but you are ignoring era context which was more bowling friendly and lower scoring.

That era valued middle order conservative batting to build a platform much more than end innings late order hitting.

The former through partnerships and blunting the bowling helped ensure competitive scores of 200-250. Imran did that many times for Pakistan, though he was capable of accelerating moreso than guys like Miandad. Of course there were freaks like Zaheer Abbas and Viv who combined high output with high rate of scoring but that wasn't the norm.

Late order bats just had a more supplementary role.

Give that in mind, Imran being able to make it to the middle order while being a worldclass bowling was much more valuable.

Imran had a RPI of 24.5
Kapil one of 19.1

A difference of around 5 runs. This, coupled with Kapil infact batted lower and had to try to hit it up way more often, I do think Kapil was the better bat and in this context, the more valuable one. You probably could make a case that Kallis was a better bat than Klusener, and hence a better player; but it will be pretty objective to say the latter is more valuable. ODIs is inherently different from Tests here.
Also, think it's pretty safe to say Kapil was India's best ODI bat there for a fair chunk. And he, in many ways, was the trend setter of batting down the order; something which got way more important once other teams caught on.

 

[DrWolverine]

Which is more valuable?
33 off 45 balls or 24 runs off 25 balls?

 

[capt_Luffy]

Which is more valuable?
33 off 45 balls or 24 runs off 25 balls?

Context dependent really, but the later more often IMHO.

 

[subshakerz]

Imran had a RPI of 24.5
Kapil one of 19.1

A difference of around 5 runs. This, coupled with Kapil infact batted lower and had to try to hit it up way more often, I do think Kapil was the better bat and in this context, the more valuable one. You probably could make a case that Kallis was a better bat than Klusener, and hence a better player; but it will be pretty objective to say the latter is more valuable. ODIs is inherently different from Tests here.

That RPI difference is fairly notable.

And you didn't address my argument. By the standards of the era, Imran was capable of holding fort regularly in the top six, shoring the innings from overs 20 to 40 and preventing collapse, which was considered more valuable than late order blasting, which Imran was also capable of.

 

[subshakerz]

Which is more valuable?
33 off 45 balls or 24 runs off 25 balls?

In the context of the 80 era, the former if it's in the middle of the innings.

That era regularly saw teams go for sub 200, that's why.

We are having a bias based on putting current era standards for the past.

Imran was capable of batting anywhere in the top 5, which meant he would need to bat slower.

Kapil was not capable of batting that high.

 

[capt_Luffy]

That RPI difference is fairly notable.

And you didn't address my argument. By the standards of the era, Imran was capable of holding fort regularly in the top six, shoring the innings from overs 20 to 40 and preventing collapse, which was considered more valuable than late order blasting, which Imran was also capable of.

It's notable but less than you would expect between a middle order innings builder and a late order basher; especially given the SR difference.
I addressed it actually. Dev was the guy who changed late order scoring so much that completely won't be an overstatement.

 

[capt_Luffy]

In the context of the 80 era, the former if it's in the middle of the innings.

That era regularly saw teams go for sub 200, that's why.

We are having a bias based on putting current era standards for the past.

But the later came at the end of the innings, almost regularly. And I would value a quick shot run a ball 24 down the order more than a 33 in the middle with a decent SR.