nz man4man better than australia

[shankar]

Surely that due to Aussie pitches being more true and the Indian pitches having only more spin but far less pace? Ricky Ponting has looked suspect against any bowling when the pitch is holding up as I think it's pretty clear he likes the ball coming on. And although you're right about him against Harbi in Aus (utter ease), against Kumble he was more 'treating him with respect' (he was bowling well) but for sure, he wasn't unduly troubled. But then, in that form (two double tons in a row), there's very few bowlers in the world who would have troubled him.

IIRR Harbhajan did not play in that series excepting for the first match when he was bowling with a finger injury which he exacerbated and had to return home.

 

[supereddi08]

As a Kiwi I find this to be an interesting thread. The fact that we can even try and compare the two teams is almost laughable.
Australia are far and away the best team in the world. This hurts and I don't like it but it's just the way it is at the moment. New Zealand on the other hand have a handy if less than brilliant first XI when everyone is fit but at the moment they are pretty much rubbish.
The batting is okay, especially since they are averaging over 400 for the first innings, but it's really the bowling that needs help. Vettori's class but he has never been a bowler who will rip through batting line-ups, we've missed Bond more than I thought we would and another quality wicket-taking paceman as opposed to pie chuckers like O'Brien, Martin, Mills and co would go a long way to making us more competitive.
Anyone looked into NZ doing an England and recruiting players ala K Pieterson? Here's a few names I reckon the Kiwis would gladly take... A Bichel, S Macgill, N Bracken, M Bevan, G Blewett, D Lehmann maybe even a B Lee if Aus don't want him?

 

[Top_Cat]

IIRR Harbhajan did not play in that series excepting for the first match when he was bowling with a finger injury which he exacerbated and had to return home.

You're right. Sorry, forgot to mention that he only played against Harbi in that series on the very unhelpful (for offies) 'Gabba deck.

 

[marc71178]

I'll say it again - try looking at some trajectories of deliveries, and measuring how much they change in 2 paces.

Well seeing as it's impossible for a ball to lift it either carries on straight or dips, thus the mathematics of it are simple.

Also bear in mind this "unhittable" ball is a yorker which tends to go in a flat trajectory.

2 paces make a big difference.

 

[Richard]

How can you rate Bond as a good ODI bowler, because according to you he can't swing it...

Don't talk rubbish, where have I said Bond can't swing the ball in ODIs?
Come to that, where have I said he can't swing the red one, either - all I ever did was suggested it as a possibility.

 

[Richard]

Amazing ...between you (richard) and TEC , you'd think Ponting and Hayden wouldn't even make it at club level.

Arguably Australia's 2 best test batsmen in arguably the greatest team in test history ....

C'mon fellas....they aren't too bad

Ponting is far better than Hayden. Put Ponting on a turning track and, as Corey has pointed-out - he's not totally clueless.
Put Hayden (an opener) on a seaming track, and I'd not give a very high price on him getting many.

 

[Richard]

It's funny how Richard says that you don't need to watch matches to judge a player, instead you can use statistics alone WHEN he is saying that Ponting looked woeful even though his statistics suggested otherwise.

Really?
I used statistics when mentioning how Ponting LOOKED?
You really do come-up with some nonsense.

 

[Richard]

Everyone is entilted to their own opinion, this is an open forum at the end of the day. The only problem with your opinion with regard Hayden is that your Totally on your own. No one else, cricket fans, players , selectors share this view.

Thus the problem with your creditability

Yet... no-one else has actually been able to come-up with a counter-claim.
The reason no-one else shares the view on Hayden is because for most people Test-match statistics are the be-all-and-end-all. That means that because Hayden has such a high average (and strike-rate), and because he plays in a team with so many victories, these things simply can't be rather misleading.
Trouble with statistics is, you've got to take them in context.
And when you do, you see that all Hayden's success has come on pitches offering nothing to the seamers.

 

[Richard]

Anyone looked into NZ doing an England and recruiting players ala K Pieterson? Here's a few names I reckon the Kiwis would gladly take... A Bichel, S Macgill, N Bracken, M Bevan, G Blewett, D Lehmann maybe even a B Lee if Aus don't want him?

Not many of those players would make NZ's side especially stronger... Bevan would make the ODI side stronger, of course, same way he'd make any ODI side stronger (including Australia's).
Just take a look at their Test-match records if you don't believe me... most of the NZers aren't much worse if worse at all.

 

[Richard]

Well seeing as it's impossible for a ball to lift it either carries on straight or dips, thus the mathematics of it are simple.

Also bear in mind this "unhittable" ball is a yorker which tends to go in a flat trajectory.

2 paces make a big difference.

No, they don't, they make a small, insignificant difference.
The distance of 2 paces is so small that the height of the delivery doesn't change much.

 

[Top_Cat]

And when you do, you see that all Hayden's success has come on pitches offering nothing to the seamers.

Hopefully I can speak for the rest of the pro-Hayden crowd when I offer the following reasons for why we think Hayden doesn't possess a real weaknes against the seaming ball:

In the many years when Hayden was consigned to Sheffield Shield/Pura Cup cricket, he played half of his matches in any given season on the 'Gabba deck which, for many years, has been largely a seaming minefield at that level (no idea why they do that then make it the pristine pitch it is for Tests; I'm sure there's some Banana Benders here who would back me on this one?). Yet, his FC average has been 50+ for years in Australian domestic cricket.

Even taking into account the slightly lower standard of bowling at Australian FC level compared to Test standard, surely this would show that he has at least some ability on seaming decks and that his lack of success on seaming pitches at Test level has probably been (and he'll hopefully show soon) an aberration? Not trying to say that you're definitively wrong but just trying to show you where the perception that Hayden could be a genuine all-wicket player stems from.

 

[marc71178]

No, they don't, they make a small, insignificant difference.
The distance of 2 paces is so small that the height of the delivery doesn't change much.

2 paces is about 2 yards - about 10% of the distance the ball has to travel - that is a significant amount.

 

[Richard]

Hopefully I can speak for the rest of the pro-Hayden crowd when I offer the following reasons for why we think Hayden doesn't possess a real weaknes against the seaming ball:

In the many years when Hayden was consigned to Sheffield Shield/Pura Cup cricket, he played half of his matches in any given season on the 'Gabba deck which, for many years, has been largely a seaming minefield at that level (no idea why they do that then make it the pristine pitch it is for Tests; I'm sure there's some Banana Benders here who would back me on this one?). Yet, his FC average has been 50+ for years in Australian domestic cricket.

Even taking into account the slightly lower standard of bowling at Australian FC level compared to Test standard, surely this would show that he has at least some ability on seaming decks and that his lack of success on seaming pitches at Test level has probably been (and he'll hopefully show soon) an aberration? Not trying to say that you're definitively wrong but just trying to show you where the perception that Hayden could be a genuine all-wicket player stems from.

I understand that, I do know a little bit about The 'Gabba's history.
Certainly that may be where a few of the pro-Hayden crowd come from (almost all relatively knowledgable Australians such as yourself) - but most of them wouldn't know that.
Most of them simply look at his average and his style as a "dominating" player, and decide that he must be good.
I don't know why Hayden succeeded for all those years on such pitches - all I know is that whenever I've watched him he's looked incredibly vulnerable to the nip-backers, and nothing has changed throughout the years he's been battering popgun bowling. All you need to do is watch Kyle Mills bowling at him between the Champions Trophy and the Chappell-Hadlee Trophies to see that.

 

[Richard]

2 paces is about 2 yards - about 10% of the distance the ball has to travel - that is a significant amount.

Really?
I suggest you take a look at the trajectory of a few deliveries and think again.

 

[marc71178]

Really?
I suggest you take a look at the trajectory of a few deliveries and think again.

Right.

Draw a line from hand to pitching (bearing in mind it's a yorker)

There is no way that the ball is able to ever dip below that line as it would then not be a yorker owing to gravity.

Therefore the ball is always at least 10% of total height when intercepted 10% of the way from pitching.

Now obviously this is convention so you're going to ignore it, but there is no way what I have outlined above is wrong.

 

[Ming]

Don't talk rubbish, where have I said Bond can't swing the ball in ODIs?
Come to that, where have I said he can't swing the red one, either - all I ever did was suggested it as a possibility.

You have said NUMEROUS times before that Shane Bond can't swing the red ball. Even though Bond yorked Lara in WI with a ripper of an inswinging yorker. You just don't back up what you say.

 

[Swervy]

Right.

Draw a line from hand to pitching (bearing in mind it's a yorker)

There is no way that the ball is able to ever dip below that line as it would then not be a yorker owing to gravity.

Therefore the ball is always at least 10% of total height when intercepted 10% of the way from pitching.

Now obviously this is convention so you're going to ignore it, but there is no way what I have outlined above is wrong.

Making assumptions of the ball being delivered from a height of 2.75m, 20 m from the batsmans crease and being delivered in a stright line from hand to crease....the height of the ball 2m from the batters crease would indeed be 10% of the original height..ie 27.5 cm (so nearly a foot).

The ball would have a slight arc (very slight) which would end on the crease..therefore the path of the ball would always be above the hand/crease path...so I would take a guess that the ball would be about 30 cms above the ground.

I am not sure what points both of you are trying to make,but I thouht I would put some numbers to it (first time I have used trig of any standard since uni 7 years ago )

 

[tooextracool]

Everyone is entilted to their own opinion, this is an open forum at the end of the day. The only problem with your opinion with regard Hayden is that your Totally on your own. No one else, cricket fans, players , selectors share this view.

Thus the problem with your creditability

the credibility is shown by his performances on seamer friendly wickets, you have to get rid of the notion that whatever the cricket fans, players etc say is right. decide for yourself, based on his record has he done anything to suggest that hes even remotely good on seamer friendly wickets?

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

based on his record has he done anything to suggest that hes even remotely good on seamer friendly wickets?

He's never done anything on the half-dozen wickets in his whole career you acknowledge as seaming, but plenty of us have discussed his performances at the Gabba and so on.

By the way, he's playing in what is undeniably seaming conditions now. Are you watching it?

 

[Ming]

Conditions are not seaming. Do you actually know what "seam" is? We have the seen the ball swing with Martin, Astle and Franklin bowling, but none of them have seamed the ball.