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NZ all-rounders
- Thread starter Tim
- Start date
Tim
Cricketer Of The Year
What are joking Marc?
Andre Adams took 9 wickets at an average of 7 & hit 36 off 24 balls in one of the ODI's when no one else could really play shots on it.
Jacob Oram saved NZ twice in a test & an ODI with the bat & was probably NZ's 2nd best bowler over the series.
As for Bond, he bats 4 for his club team & averages around 30..he's hit two 50's this season for Canterbury..I see no reason why Bond couldn't go up to at least 7 or 8 in the future.
Andre Adams took 9 wickets at an average of 7 & hit 36 off 24 balls in one of the ODI's when no one else could really play shots on it.
Jacob Oram saved NZ twice in a test & an ODI with the bat & was probably NZ's 2nd best bowler over the series.
As for Bond, he bats 4 for his club team & averages around 30..he's hit two 50's this season for Canterbury..I see no reason why Bond couldn't go up to at least 7 or 8 in the future.
Eclipse
International Debutant
Well Lee does have a test batting avrage over 20 with 2 50s and he has an ODI avrage of 17 with a 52*Tim said:
Considering Bond has not got a 50 in ether form of the game and has a poor record I think its safe to at least pressume Lee is better. Even if hes not your natrualy going to pressume he is better because of his better record.
Personaly I would think Lee is quite a bit better than Bond with the bat.
I agree with Marc on this one - Cairns is the only bonafide all rounder in either the Test or ODI teams, although Harris used to be considered an ODI all rounder.
IMO a genuine all rounder must be a wicket taker with a 5 wicket bag or better, consistantly take wickets each series and a wicket average no higher than mid 30s. With the bat they should have a top score of a ton or be reaching half tons in each series, and an average no lower than about 25. Further more they should have played at least 3 full seasons at international level or 12 matches of one type b4 their stats can be considered.
While the others may have potential or even good domestic credentials, none of them have shown enough consistancy at International level with either bat or ball & shot making ability as opposed to being heavy hitters.
The other semi all rounder is Vettori as a result of his test 90 & some of the rear guard batting he posted with the likes of Nash some years back.
Until these others do something similar at international level these players have potential but need to go a long way further to be genuine all rounders.
Don't get me wrong - I see good things ahead at international level for all these players, and I believe they have possibly turned a corner in their development over the past 12 months. The next step is to improve their stats re best figures & averages with both bat & ball.
IMO a genuine all rounder must be a wicket taker with a 5 wicket bag or better, consistantly take wickets each series and a wicket average no higher than mid 30s. With the bat they should have a top score of a ton or be reaching half tons in each series, and an average no lower than about 25. Further more they should have played at least 3 full seasons at international level or 12 matches of one type b4 their stats can be considered.
While the others may have potential or even good domestic credentials, none of them have shown enough consistancy at International level with either bat or ball & shot making ability as opposed to being heavy hitters.
The other semi all rounder is Vettori as a result of his test 90 & some of the rear guard batting he posted with the likes of Nash some years back.
Until these others do something similar at international level these players have potential but need to go a long way further to be genuine all rounders.
Don't get me wrong - I see good things ahead at international level for all these players, and I believe they have possibly turned a corner in their development over the past 12 months. The next step is to improve their stats re best figures & averages with both bat & ball.
Rik
Cricketer Of The Year
Adams...he had a very good debut against England and although he got a duck he bowled very well. Actually I'd rate him as a better 4D all-rounder than OD all-rounder as he's yet to score a 50 in either ODIs or Domestic OD.sasnoz said:
Oram has had a superb season and has looked useful in the last few years and Mills, I don't see your problem here, I looked at some pics of him bowling and I can't see anything out of the ordinary.
As far as genuine international class all-rounders are concerned, Chris Cairns is really the only one that fits the bill. The others are bits and pieces utility players(I am not deriding utility players here, but they can loosely be classified as all-rounders at one day level, that's it) at best right now. Whether some or all of them can develop into top-flight all-rounders at test level remains to be seen.
u like to disagree rik
but adams is a slogger so in tests he is nothing more than a bowler who hits the ball so he cant be an allrounder hes afrdi like in his agression and good bowling will get him so if he cant bat well hes not a allrounder plus his bowling is inconsistent
oram ****es me off because hes a useless bowler and a crap batter,and he publicly said that he wants to take over the caPTAiNCY
and mills throws especially with his effort ball,commentators say it i say it every body thinks it so people who see him bowl think so
but adams is a slogger so in tests he is nothing more than a bowler who hits the ball so he cant be an allrounder hes afrdi like in his agression and good bowling will get him so if he cant bat well hes not a allrounder plus his bowling is inconsistent
oram ****es me off because hes a useless bowler and a crap batter,and he publicly said that he wants to take over the caPTAiNCY
and mills throws especially with his effort ball,commentators say it i say it every body thinks it so people who see him bowl think so
Mr Mxyzptlk
Request Your Custom Title Now!
Oram - seems a very decent player who I can be very useful for NZ.sasnoz said:
Mills - haven't seen him therefore no opinion.
Adams - appears to be a good player but hasn't played enough to fully prove so.
Cairns - IMO, the best all-rounder of the 90's. He's a fantastically entertaining bat and is an extremely effective bowler when fit.
Wazztodd
Cricket Spectator
Have to agree with that. A genuine all-rounder can win you a game with either bat or ball, and Cairns is the only one mentioned who fits into that category, though they are all useful players.
I would argue that Jacques Kallis is the best all-rounder running around right now, though saying Cairns was the best of the 90's is probably not far off the mark, except for when Akram was batting really well.
Wasim = 1 of only 4 players to take 10-for and score a double hundred in Tests...
Name the other 3!
Mr Mxyzptlk
Request Your Custom Title Now!
Yes I am a huge Kallis fan as I have stated in previous threads!
However, Cairns I believe was playing for a few years before Kallis really asserted himself in ODI cricket.
However, Cairns I believe was playing for a few years before Kallis really asserted himself in ODI cricket.
Bazza
International 12th Man
Never one to back down from a trivia/stats challenge!Wazztodd said:Wasim = 1 of only 4 players to take 10-for and score a double hundred in Tests...
Name the other 3!
Well you've given me Wasim, Botham is a pretty obvious one, Border surprisingly I picked (remembered hearing recently someone claiming he was probably the worst bowler to take 10 wickets in a match!). Vinoo Mankad is the other.
I must hold my hands up - I thought Border would be the 'trick' answer here, and once I got him I thought the other might be someone obvious like a Sobers. I also looked at many modern day players like Waugh, Tendulkar, Jayasuriya and Hooper. Ultimately I was reduced to checking out the list of every test 200.
I can't believe u say some of this stuff about the NZ players. They may not be world class players but they are the best that NZ has at the moment and I am going to get right in behind that team and hope they do well at the world cup.
Adams is a match winner as far as I am concerned. Things just seem to happen while he has the ball. And if he gets wound up he can hit the ball a long way.
I think we have to get over Chris Cairns. He is not going to be here for much longer and we need to find a replacement. I know that One of the other Alrounders will step up.
Adams is a match winner as far as I am concerned. Things just seem to happen while he has the ball. And if he gets wound up he can hit the ball a long way.
I think we have to get over Chris Cairns. He is not going to be here for much longer and we need to find a replacement. I know that One of the other Alrounders will step up.
don't get me wrong Tamara I'm not having a go at the boys - I'm just trying to be honest about their current profile in International cricket both stats wise & what I have seen of their play.
Their achievements to date do not warrant their being called true international class all rounders (apart from Cairns). However they seem to have come on leaps and bounds in the past 12 months and could make the grade if they continue this progress.
My main concern is their batting & shot selection, as most seem to be going for the big hit, although Oram & Styris seem to have curbed this in the Indian series.
What remains now is for them to make some more innings of substance with the bat that 'turns / saves' some matches, and to start posting good scores of 50+.
IMO on current form Oram would now appear to have taken the mantle as a future replacement for Cairns ahead of the other contenders I have heard mentioned such as Franklin. I have no problems with his bowling from what I have seen this series & was impressed with his bounce and movement when other bowlers were unable to do so. Furthermore I see nothing wrong with him been keen to take on the Captaincy at a latter date, as he's young enough to wait for a few more years yet! He has made some good achievements Captaining CD with what has basically been an understrength side without the resources to most other sides.
Adams is a genuine game breaker but IMO this is not the same as being a genuine all rounder - he's an impact player on a smaller scale but of all the contenders probably has had the most all rounder like impact to date.
Strangely enough I think Styris' bowling may be his weak point looking at the Indian series. Eventually he may become another player like McMillan who bats & can bowl a bit if required. Of all the 'contenders / pretenders' his shot making has impressed the most.
I think the future looks bright provided we continue to work on the foundations we have to take it to the nest level. From what I have seen around the place at the moment I think NZ possibly has the best depth in this area, and just as important they are getting regular International experience to improve with.
Their achievements to date do not warrant their being called true international class all rounders (apart from Cairns). However they seem to have come on leaps and bounds in the past 12 months and could make the grade if they continue this progress.
My main concern is their batting & shot selection, as most seem to be going for the big hit, although Oram & Styris seem to have curbed this in the Indian series.
What remains now is for them to make some more innings of substance with the bat that 'turns / saves' some matches, and to start posting good scores of 50+.
IMO on current form Oram would now appear to have taken the mantle as a future replacement for Cairns ahead of the other contenders I have heard mentioned such as Franklin. I have no problems with his bowling from what I have seen this series & was impressed with his bounce and movement when other bowlers were unable to do so. Furthermore I see nothing wrong with him been keen to take on the Captaincy at a latter date, as he's young enough to wait for a few more years yet! He has made some good achievements Captaining CD with what has basically been an understrength side without the resources to most other sides.
Adams is a genuine game breaker but IMO this is not the same as being a genuine all rounder - he's an impact player on a smaller scale but of all the contenders probably has had the most all rounder like impact to date.
Strangely enough I think Styris' bowling may be his weak point looking at the Indian series. Eventually he may become another player like McMillan who bats & can bowl a bit if required. Of all the 'contenders / pretenders' his shot making has impressed the most.
I think the future looks bright provided we continue to work on the foundations we have to take it to the nest level. From what I have seen around the place at the moment I think NZ possibly has the best depth in this area, and just as important they are getting regular International experience to improve with.
If u take the allrounder status off these players in the NZ team look what we have. And where they should be batting.
Fleming - batter (4)
Astle - Batter (1)
Sinclair - batter (3)
McMillan - Batter (5)
Vincent - batter (6)
Mills - bowler (8)
Adams - bowler (9)
Oram - Bowler (8)
Vettori - Bowler (10)
Bond - Bowler (10)
Tuffey - bowler (11)
Cairns - Allrounder (6)
McCullam - Wicketkeeper (8)
Harris - Whatever u want to call him (8)
Top order players 1-3 (2 players)
Middle order 4-7(4 players)
Lower order 8-11 (8 players)
This shows our lack of tope order batters we need another 3 top order batters in this team. They are trying to get Harris to play a Bevan role as a batter and he is not a number 4 . He should be coming in with 10 overs left.
Adams, Mills, Oram and Styris are not good enough batters to come in if our top order fails so we need another player like Vincent there.
As for Seam Bowlers. Mills, Bond, Tuffey, Adams, Styris, Oram and Cairns(if he bowls). We don't need all these bowlers. 4 of them at the most as McMillan and Astle can bowl part time if required.
And Going to the World cup with one spinner. That is also a big call.
Fleming - batter (4)
Astle - Batter (1)
Sinclair - batter (3)
McMillan - Batter (5)
Vincent - batter (6)
Mills - bowler (8)
Adams - bowler (9)
Oram - Bowler (8)
Vettori - Bowler (10)
Bond - Bowler (10)
Tuffey - bowler (11)
Cairns - Allrounder (6)
McCullam - Wicketkeeper (8)
Harris - Whatever u want to call him (8)
Top order players 1-3 (2 players)
Middle order 4-7(4 players)
Lower order 8-11 (8 players)
This shows our lack of tope order batters we need another 3 top order batters in this team. They are trying to get Harris to play a Bevan role as a batter and he is not a number 4 . He should be coming in with 10 overs left.
Adams, Mills, Oram and Styris are not good enough batters to come in if our top order fails so we need another player like Vincent there.
As for Seam Bowlers. Mills, Bond, Tuffey, Adams, Styris, Oram and Cairns(if he bowls). We don't need all these bowlers. 4 of them at the most as McMillan and Astle can bowl part time if required.
And Going to the World cup with one spinner. That is also a big call.
I agree that Kallis is very clearly the best all-rounder right now, I was talking about all-rounders in NZ's context. There is this tendency nowadays to classify any bowler who comes successful with the bat in a couple of games or a batsman who bowls well in a couple of games as an all-rounder. I think it just shows the paucity of genuine world class all-rounders when such players are immediately pulled into the top all-rounder category.Wazztodd said:Have to agree with that. A genuine all-rounder can win you a game with either bat or ball, and Cairns is the only one mentioned who fits into that category, though they are all useful players.
I would argue that Jacques Kallis is the best all-rounder running around right now, though saying Cairns was the best of the 90's is probably not far off the mark, except for when Akram was batting really well.
Wasim = 1 of only 4 players to take 10-for and score a double hundred in Tests...
Name the other 3!