New Zealand doom and gloom thread

[Zinzan]

If the relationship is damaged beyond repair, then the NZ Cricket team needs to take part of the blame.

I'm not going to claim to know the details, but from an outsiders perspective, what more could NZ cricket have done?

 

[wellAlbidarned]

Yeah obviously the media and dickheads who regularly tried to bait jesse are ****s, but unfortunately they're not gonna change any time soon, and an international sportsman needs to be able to deal with it. I completely sympathise with Jesse because I'm not the most level headed bloke either, and it's probably hell not being able to go to the pub without some twit having a go at you, but that's life.

 

[Zinzan]

I

The only way I'd call him a poor bastard is that he didn't play in another era. Modern professionalism requires more than he was willing to give. That doesn't make him a victim.

Great point this. Anyone who read anything about Geoff Howarth would probably agree Jesse would have probably got through it relatively unscathed as a 1980s NZ cricketer.

 

[SteveNZ]

If the relationship is damaged beyond repair, then the NZ Cricket team needs to take part of the blame.

I feel robbed as a fan of NZ Cricket of Jesse's talents and I don't think its solely Jesse's fault.

We all feel a bit robbed but I don't see that NZ Cricket should take any of the blame. Can we point to an athlete in any sport that has constantly caused issues to Jesse's extent, and was eventually able to be resolved/managed? It's a bit different than the KP situation where they weren't able to accommodate his ego (at times, I'm not defending KP's inability to meet them halfway) - this is a guy consistently presenting himself unprofessionally and at times unfit to play, driving a wedge into any attempt at creating a professional culture, putting himself in bad situations, dragging people along with him etc. I don't know how you accommodate a bloke who could at any stage nip out at midnight before a Test and cause an issue.

 

[CaptainGrumpy]

I'm not going to claim to know the details, but from an outsiders perspective, what more could NZ cricket have done?

Put the media in their place.

Stood beside him.

I read that minders were put in place. Perhaps not the most effective selections.

I understand that there is a fear of enabling. But if someone is an alcoholic, it can be managed so that they can still play a bit of cricket.

Wasn't he the 12th man and not even in the team when he went drinking before that India match?

And people really think this is new for the players to do this? Its old and been around for ever and a day. Its the social media and the general public engaging with social media that has changed the game and raised the public's expectations - but as for members of the general public picking fights or trying to get him ridiculously drunk - that is just bizarre behaviour by the general population. Almost Australian like. I expect more from New Zealanders.

 

[SteveNZ]

Put the media in their place. .

Ha, cmon mate. No one can control the media. Let's say NZC says right NZHerald, you write anything we don't like about Jesse, you're not accredited. NZH says well hold on, freedom of speech we'll write whatever we want thanks. And we're the #1 daily circulation around NZ, if you cut us off you're cutting off exposure for your game, your sponsors etc. Just doesn't work. I agree the media are far from without fault but Jesse always gave them enough fodder. And was doing so well before Mark Zuckerberg started in business.

And the minders weren't the best selections? Who did you want, Dwayne Johnson? He wasn't available.

He was 12th man for the Indian game. What if someone pulled up crook the night before? There was an injury in warm-ups? What, we're supposed to play with 10 and a drunk? I'm sure all of us who have played hungover can attest it's not something you want to do for peak performance.

Your final point is completely fair. I also expect more from New Zealanders in respect to that **** in Napier, when Jesse/Doug were in the pub (again, they weren't supposed to be given they were injured so they gave it traction) and two local ****wits went to the press. That's puerile UK red-top stuff. As for those ****heads in Chch, they should be behind bars.

 

[CaptainGrumpy]

Ha, cmon mate. No one can control the media. Let's say NZC says right NZHerald, you write anything we don't like about Jesse, you're not accredited. NZH says well hold on, freedom of speech we'll write whatever we want thanks. And we're the #1 daily circulation around NZ, if you cut us off you're cutting off exposure for your game, your sponsors etc. Just doesn't work. I agree the media are far from without fault but Jesse always gave them enough fodder. And was doing so well before Mark Zuckerberg started in business.

No, but they could have gone on the front foot with the media and had them back off for reporting on someone's personal life and personal problems. Its been done before. Reporting that someone was out drinking when nothing eventful happened is unnecesarily invading someone's privacy in my view.

And the minders weren't the best selections? Who did you want, Dwayne Johnson? He wasn't available.

Ha. That would be brilliant. But yeah - someone who could throw him in a taxi at the end of the night. And maybe a team mate or two to go out with him or even have him drink in the hotel with occasionally. They don't necessarily have to drink. Just humour him. Make him feel like part of the team.

He was 12th man for the Indian game. What if someone pulled up crook the night before? There was an injury in warm-ups? What, we're supposed to play with 10 and a drunk? I'm sure all of us who have played hungover can attest it's not something you want to do for peak performance.

The odds are so slim that I no issue with the twelfth man, especially a batting one, having a drink before the game. I really don't. Games start at 10.30 and then you may not even be batting. Seriously. Cricketers have been playing with hangovers for decades. But if in the unlikely event someone is injured, and he's not fit to play, select someone else. What time was he spotted out? 1am? Storm in a tea cup if so. If he is half the alcoholic the media has me believing - he would have been fine to play the next day.

Your final point is completely fair. I also expect more from New Zealanders in respect to that **** in Napier, when Jesse/Doug were in the pub (again, they weren't supposed to be given they were injured so they gave it traction) and two local ****wits went to the press. That's puerile UK red-top stuff. As for those ****heads in Chch, they should be behind bars.

Agreed.

 

[cnerd123]

The odds are so slim that I no issue with the twelfth man, especially a batting one, having a drink before the game. I really don't. Games start at 10.30 and then you may not even be batting. Seriously. Cricketers have been playing with hangovers for decades. But if in the unlikely event someone is injured, and he's not fit to play, select someone else. What time was he spotted out? 1am? Storm in a tea cup if so. If he is half the alcoholic the media has me believing - he would have been fine to play the next day.

Yea no you don't get paid to be an International Cricketer only to bail out when your side selects you because you are hungover.

 

[SteveNZ]

Unfortunately you can't get on the front foot with the media. They hold the power. It's a **** situation but it is what it is. I can only think of instances like Andrew Johns in Newcastle as somewhere where consistent indiscretions were covered up - and that was in a league-crazy town where both media and public were prepared to chuck a cover over it. Not possible in NZ. You can refuse to talk to the media directly, and they'll just go and speak to unconfirmed sources or members of the public ala Napier.

If I use the NZ Academy minder as an example...this guy did his best. Short of being able to actually physically pick Jesse up and throw him in a taxi, it wasn't happening. This bloke got punches thrown at him too, a team mate. So he said **** it, not worth my trouble. And anyone else would.

Odds might be slim of playing but if you want to be a professional sportsman you (mind the cliché) conquer the 1%ers, do everything you can to be prepared or you're cooked. Cricketers don't play with hangovers anymore. I'm sure you'd admit it's less than ideal. If someone's injured, isn't the idea to pick the guy who's there as 12th man - not someone else because he's hungover? The next best replacement might be in Dunedin while you're in Auckland, how does that work? Do you just select me because I live in Sandringham and I had a DVD night with the mrs and a good night's sleep? You're not really looking at it practically. He was out late, I have no doubt he was pissed, and it was 100% the wrong thing to do.

 

[Zinzan]

No, but they could have gone on the front foot with the media and had them back off for reporting on someone's personal life and personal problems. Its been done before. Reporting that someone was out drinking when nothing eventful happened is unnecesarily invading someone's privacy in my view.

It doesn't work like that. NZ cricket would have tried to keep everything in-house if at all possible.. there's very little they can do when the public are reporting things.

The odds are so slim that I no issue with the twelfth man, especially a batting one, having a drink before the game. I really don't. Games start at 10.30 and then you may not even be batting. Seriously. Cricketers have been playing with hangovers for decades. But if in the unlikely event someone is injured, and he's not fit to play, select someone else. What time was he spotted out? 1am? Storm in a tea cup if so. If he is half the alcoholic the media has me believing - he would have been fine to play the next day.

It's debatable whether a 12th man in a Test match should drink the eve before a test, but even granted that 1-2 is fine according to the respective teams culture and ethos, there's a huge difference having a wine or beer with your dinner in the hotel room, than at the local pub, where you're likely to run into locals you know.

 

[CaptainGrumpy]

Yea no you don't get paid to be an International Cricketer only to bail out when your side selects you because you are hungover.

Well if I believe the media then Jesse is regularly hung over and must have scored a lot runs with said hang over.

 

[CaptainGrumpy]

Unfortunately you can't get on the front foot with the media. They hold the power. It's a **** situation but it is what it is.

The media is a "watchdog" but it can be tamed by the persons who are media savvy. The Americans actually employ media relations agencies to handle situations and players etc. As do political parties.

NZC could have handled the media, and by virtue the public perception of Jesse, better.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

Look I don't even think anyone here disagrees that much with you, except on the idea that there's still something that can be done. It's finished. Both parties have moved on.

 

[SteveNZ]

The media is a "watchdog" but it can be tamed by the persons who are media savvy. The Americans actually employ media relations agencies to handle situations and players etc. As do political parties.

NZC could have handled the media, and by virtue the public perception of Jesse, better.

America is America, NZ is NZ. There's no media relation professionals here that could have mopped up the pieces after Jesse. The PM has a media/PR team - that seems to be going well for him?!?! NZC's coffers are insignificant, hence why we keep rolling out ODIs over Tests.

You're being way too idealistic here I'm afraid. There will never be another international cricketer like Jesse. There just won't (unless he averages 100+)

 

[CaptainGrumpy]

America is America, NZ is NZ.

The sky is blue, water is wet, women have secrets.

 

[Bahnz]

The odds are so slim that I no issue with the twelfth man, especially a batting one, having a drink before the game. I really don't. Games start at 10.30 and then you may not even be batting. Seriously. Cricketers have been playing with hangovers for decades. But if in the unlikely event someone is injured, and he's not fit to play, select someone else. What time was he spotted out? 1am? Storm in a tea cup if so. If he is half the alcoholic the media has me believing - he would have been fine to play the next day.

Weren't the usual odds though. Ross Taylor's wife was 36 weeks pregnant at the time, and he'd already publicly stated that if she went into labour he was off. If that'd happened on the morning of the game - and there was a very realistic chance that it could've - then Ryder, as the reserve batsman, would've been in the team. Was pretty irresponsible, even by Jesse's standards. What was really galling about the incident though was his subsequent refusal to admit that he'd ****ed up.

As for cricketers playing with hangovers for decades: club cricketers and some first class cricketers maybe. But it's been a long time since a fully professional international could expect to walk up to a game with a raging hangover and expect to get away with it in a test match.

 

[CaptainGrumpy]

"Raging hangover" - did you talk to him in the morning?

 

[Bahnz]

"Raging hangover" - did you talk to him in the morning?

Yeah, that's probably exaggerating things - though it really wouldn't surprise me if he did, which is part of the problem really.

 

[CaptainGrumpy]

Yeah, that's probably exaggerating things - though it really wouldn't surprise me if he did, which is part of the problem really.

From what the media has reported of his drinking habits, and posters on here, maybe including you, if his rubbish bin is full of empties then I'd say he function normally the day after drinking, because it is such a regular occurrence their body and mind is accustomed to it.

Most drinkers I know can and do.

Oh well, just saying my 5 cents on Jesse. I know its not popular.

 

[Moss]

Weren't the usual odds though. Ross Taylor's wife was 36 weeks pregnant at the time, and he'd already publicly stated that if she went into labour he was off. If that'd happened on the morning of the game - and there was a very realistic chance that it could've - then Ryder, as the reserve batsman, would've been in the team. Was pretty irresponsible, even by Jesse's standards. What was really galling about the incident though was his subsequent refusal to admit that he'd ****ed up.

As for cricketers playing with hangovers for decades: club cricketers and some first class cricketers maybe. But it's been a long time since a fully professional international could expect to walk up to a game with a raging hangover and expect to get away with it in a test match.

IIRC Taylor did miss that game and Jesse would have played, turned out Latham took his spot at no.4.

In a way, Jesse might have done NZ a favour if Latham goes on to enjoy a productive test career.