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New Zealand doom and gloom thread
- Thread starter Bahnz
- Start date
wellAlbidarned
International Coach
remember when all the aussie posters were all massive ****s?
oh wait they still are
oh wait they still are
morgieb
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Nah, bandwagoners would imply that they weren't moping and had pissed off from CW.
hendrix
Hall of Fame Member
1. 200%, A+
2. B-. Happy with Craig's work. Sodhi looked good in the UAE but seems to have missed a few first class games.
3. B. Tom Latham was fantastic in the Windies and UAE. Had a tough return at home but we were sent in on green decks.
straw man
Hall of Fame Member
Yes it is, can't believe this thread was only started in 2012 either.
This thread is definitive proof that if a group of people engage in enough wishful thinking and unreasonable optimism then through sheer power of will the arrow of time will fork into a parallel universe where all your most fantastical dreams come true.
- Something amazing is built from the ashes left after a horribly managed mutiny against a young captain, which leaves the entire country hating all things NZ cricket;
- NZ cricket has a 'good culture';
- Brendon McCullum starts making big hundreds;
- BJ Watling turns into not just a handy lower order batsman but a very good keeper too;
- Southee and Boult turn into genuinely one of the best new ball pairs in the world;
- Kaneh;
- All our promising bowlers don't get injured;
- New players brought into the side actually perform;
- People on the street are excited about NZ cricket.
It's the most unlikely story.
Bahnz
Hall of Fame Member
When I started this thread:
a) We all (save Howsie) thought that Southee was rubbish and would continue to be so for some time;
b) Boult couldn't get a game;
c) Kane couldn't buy a run;
d) Wagner - who for some was the great white hope - had just bowled a pile of absolute puss;
e) John Wright was leaving as coach and was to be replaced by a 7 year old;
f) Chris Martin was bowling at about 120 kmh and still had a lock on 1st seamers spot;
g) Bracewell - the shining light from our home summer - was returning to being rubbish;
h) van Wyk was shelling chances and reducing Taylor's effectiveness at 1st slip - and his only replacement Watling obviously wasn't a proper keeper;
i) McCullum kept throwing his wicket away at the top of the order; and
j) Martin ****ing Guptill was probably our best batsman after Taylor.
So yeah, things have changed a bit. I never realistically thought New Zealand would be winning test series and seriously competing at global tournaments within a couple of years. Long may it continue
a) We all (save Howsie) thought that Southee was rubbish and would continue to be so for some time;
b) Boult couldn't get a game;
c) Kane couldn't buy a run;
d) Wagner - who for some was the great white hope - had just bowled a pile of absolute puss;
e) John Wright was leaving as coach and was to be replaced by a 7 year old;
f) Chris Martin was bowling at about 120 kmh and still had a lock on 1st seamers spot;
g) Bracewell - the shining light from our home summer - was returning to being rubbish;
h) van Wyk was shelling chances and reducing Taylor's effectiveness at 1st slip - and his only replacement Watling obviously wasn't a proper keeper;
i) McCullum kept throwing his wicket away at the top of the order; and
j) Martin ****ing Guptill was probably our best batsman after Taylor.
So yeah, things have changed a bit. I never realistically thought New Zealand would be winning test series and seriously competing at global tournaments within a couple of years. Long may it continue
HeathDavisSpeed
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
My contributions to this thread were standard Heef fare. Firstly, putting the boot into Millmow and then an off-topic reference to cult hero Luke Vivian.
EDIT: I stand by those contributions with pride.
EDIT: I stand by those contributions with pride.
hendrix
Hall of Fame Member
I never thought Southee was rubbish. I was against him being dropped (even though it was probably good for his development) because even though he went for runs he always had the ability to produce wicket-taking deliveries, and our Test attack at the time he was dropped was horribly un-incisive.
straw man
Hall of Fame Member
I saw a few good quotes when I looked back through, including a few good tastes from me (and others).
Flem274*
123/5
so my takeaway from this thread is NZC are completely incompetent and have a talent for dropping the ball after putting a decent team together, which means when that decent side all retire early we plummet back to being crap for 5-10 years.
i mean the change they made to turn things around (Baz to skipper) they tried to **** up as well as they could. when they shut the bowling academy down and gave up the bowlers got better and stopped getting injured.
if they have an opener academy they should shut that down too.
basically NZ excels when the captain gets to do his thing and NZC admit they suck and go away. can you remember the last grand plan to come out of david white's mouth? no, i can't either. he's probably sitting in the corner not allowed to touch anything or baz will charge his backside for six over cover point.
hopefully Baz's efforts at creating a true winner culture have a lasting effect and ensure we can at least be the Ireland Showjumping of test cricket (sometimes genius, but always respectable and firmly esconed in european division one of the nations cup).
i also think we couldn't have done this without the BJ Watling attitude of self improvement and determination. Not saying he's lead the side per se but he embodies what powerful NZ sides are all about.
i mean the change they made to turn things around (Baz to skipper) they tried to **** up as well as they could. when they shut the bowling academy down and gave up the bowlers got better and stopped getting injured.
if they have an opener academy they should shut that down too.
basically NZ excels when the captain gets to do his thing and NZC admit they suck and go away. can you remember the last grand plan to come out of david white's mouth? no, i can't either. he's probably sitting in the corner not allowed to touch anything or baz will charge his backside for six over cover point.
hopefully Baz's efforts at creating a true winner culture have a lasting effect and ensure we can at least be the Ireland Showjumping of test cricket (sometimes genius, but always respectable and firmly esconed in european division one of the nations cup).
i also think we couldn't have done this without the BJ Watling attitude of self improvement and determination. Not saying he's lead the side per se but he embodies what powerful NZ sides are all about.
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Spikey
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check out Mr Right over here
Flem274*
123/5
I just want to speculate and ramble a bit because I cbf going to sleep. There will be some doom and gloom in the ramble somewhere so it fits the thread. Settle in or skip.
I'm fascinated by how Baz has adapted his approach to changing the culture of how New Zealand sides are expected to play. It's hard to tell what's going on from the outside so I'm just going by his words and the words of the players here. When he took over we knew what was coming - aggression, intent, natural game yadda yadda. Before and just after 45 all out Baz was a cliche and gibberish machine (who could forget the topic of aggression rights?).
He said he and the team did deep soul searching after South Africa about how they needed to change. They settled on taking what CW kiwis think is the tired cliche of kiwi fighters and team spirit (usually meant as boring blocking untalented bits and pieces by overseas media) and rebranded it into a resolute attacking style built on absolute belief in the man beside you that could immediately switch gears to a refusal to die (The Basin v India, the Sri Lanka test this summer), always played in the spirit of the game.
They blend hyper-aggression with stone walling and it's so great to watch and clearly inspires the young side. McCullum doesn't talk weird anymore, his messages are simple and succint and if he's easy for us to understand he's probably easy for his players too. I love how he's trying to change the "culture of mediocrity" I always used to whinge about. It looks like he's trying to leave something behind. My only criticism of the old guard from previous good sides is they bought into the underdog status too much (Hadlee telling Bond not to talk it up at press conferences, Wright always saying if we fight hard and play our best we can "compete" not "win" etc).
Little Kiwi Me doesn't breed long term success. That doesn't mean be arrogant, but too much humility is almost false. Baz has found the middle ground where the team respects the opposition without either putting them on a pedestal or belittling them.
Hesson plays a part too. Everyone says he's a details man and a meticulous planner. When I look at recent NZ sides, Greatbatch dealt in sound bites about batting like dicks, Bracewell loved a good theory and Wright trusted talent more than tactics (telling Ryder to "not get out" as his game plan in the 2011 WC). The side needed a strategist and Hesson fills in the details while Baz says "follow me!" The fact man to the sixth sense captancy of Baz. They're like Southee and Boult, Williamson and Taylor. McCullum and Watling.
He makes us 2012 doubters taste it over and over and over and I love it.
But.
NZC must not drop the ball again when McCullum and later the rest of this team retires.
After Hadlee came the early and middle 90s. After Fleming came the late 00s. There is no good reason for generations to alternate between being good and being ****. NZC must keep this culture revolution going.
I have a theory our success is dictated less by prodigies and more by Watlings'. A Watling is defined as a limited domestic cricketer who transforms into anything between decent test cricketer to the best in the world in his role through working out his game and determination to succeed (Watling himself is the WPWB).
Vettori had himself, Taylor, Ryder, McCullum the world class keeper batsman, Oram and sometimes Bond as prodigies. We sucked, and I think it was because half the team contributed nothing. Marto and O'Brien were Watlings' who made the bowling decent-ish but we needed one more test standard quick. The batting had zero middle ground. McIntosh was the closest to being a Watling but ultimately failed. The batsmen averaged either 45 or 25.
Fleming's prodigies were either permanently injuried or underachieved (including himself). His side was stacked with Watlings' though. Richardson, Astle, Styris, Parore, early Tuffey, early Franklin, Martin...they were so damn good for a side that had a horrible time trying to get the various second comings of Hadlee and Crowe to achieve it.
The 80s had Wright, Edgar, Jones, Reid, Coney, Smith, Bracewell, Cairns and Chatfield in the Watling department. Only two prodigies but it didn't matter.
McCullum is blessed to have both prodigies and Watlings' coming out of his ears. This won't last forever though, and behind Kane and Latham we haven't seen another batting prodigy. Baz has a short time left, Ross has 5 or so years and Ryder is a lost cause. We have plenty of bowling prodigies but we desperately need Macewell, Young, O'Donnell, Mitchell etc to be Watlings'. We also need Watlings' in the opener department.
If no batsmen become Watlings' this renaissance will be short lived and we will slowly slide back to where we started.
I'm fascinated by how Baz has adapted his approach to changing the culture of how New Zealand sides are expected to play. It's hard to tell what's going on from the outside so I'm just going by his words and the words of the players here. When he took over we knew what was coming - aggression, intent, natural game yadda yadda. Before and just after 45 all out Baz was a cliche and gibberish machine (who could forget the topic of aggression rights?).
He said he and the team did deep soul searching after South Africa about how they needed to change. They settled on taking what CW kiwis think is the tired cliche of kiwi fighters and team spirit (usually meant as boring blocking untalented bits and pieces by overseas media) and rebranded it into a resolute attacking style built on absolute belief in the man beside you that could immediately switch gears to a refusal to die (The Basin v India, the Sri Lanka test this summer), always played in the spirit of the game.
They blend hyper-aggression with stone walling and it's so great to watch and clearly inspires the young side. McCullum doesn't talk weird anymore, his messages are simple and succint and if he's easy for us to understand he's probably easy for his players too. I love how he's trying to change the "culture of mediocrity" I always used to whinge about. It looks like he's trying to leave something behind. My only criticism of the old guard from previous good sides is they bought into the underdog status too much (Hadlee telling Bond not to talk it up at press conferences, Wright always saying if we fight hard and play our best we can "compete" not "win" etc).
Little Kiwi Me doesn't breed long term success. That doesn't mean be arrogant, but too much humility is almost false. Baz has found the middle ground where the team respects the opposition without either putting them on a pedestal or belittling them.
Hesson plays a part too. Everyone says he's a details man and a meticulous planner. When I look at recent NZ sides, Greatbatch dealt in sound bites about batting like dicks, Bracewell loved a good theory and Wright trusted talent more than tactics (telling Ryder to "not get out" as his game plan in the 2011 WC). The side needed a strategist and Hesson fills in the details while Baz says "follow me!" The fact man to the sixth sense captancy of Baz. They're like Southee and Boult, Williamson and Taylor. McCullum and Watling.
He makes us 2012 doubters taste it over and over and over and I love it.
But.
NZC must not drop the ball again when McCullum and later the rest of this team retires.
After Hadlee came the early and middle 90s. After Fleming came the late 00s. There is no good reason for generations to alternate between being good and being ****. NZC must keep this culture revolution going.
I have a theory our success is dictated less by prodigies and more by Watlings'. A Watling is defined as a limited domestic cricketer who transforms into anything between decent test cricketer to the best in the world in his role through working out his game and determination to succeed (Watling himself is the WPWB).
Vettori had himself, Taylor, Ryder, McCullum the world class keeper batsman, Oram and sometimes Bond as prodigies. We sucked, and I think it was because half the team contributed nothing. Marto and O'Brien were Watlings' who made the bowling decent-ish but we needed one more test standard quick. The batting had zero middle ground. McIntosh was the closest to being a Watling but ultimately failed. The batsmen averaged either 45 or 25.
Fleming's prodigies were either permanently injuried or underachieved (including himself). His side was stacked with Watlings' though. Richardson, Astle, Styris, Parore, early Tuffey, early Franklin, Martin...they were so damn good for a side that had a horrible time trying to get the various second comings of Hadlee and Crowe to achieve it.
The 80s had Wright, Edgar, Jones, Reid, Coney, Smith, Bracewell, Cairns and Chatfield in the Watling department. Only two prodigies but it didn't matter.
McCullum is blessed to have both prodigies and Watlings' coming out of his ears. This won't last forever though, and behind Kane and Latham we haven't seen another batting prodigy. Baz has a short time left, Ross has 5 or so years and Ryder is a lost cause. We have plenty of bowling prodigies but we desperately need Macewell, Young, O'Donnell, Mitchell etc to be Watlings'. We also need Watlings' in the opener department.
If no batsmen become Watlings' this renaissance will be short lived and we will slowly slide back to where we started.
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