New Zealand 'A' Tour of U.K., 2014

[hendrix]

Yeah. He's less of a pure swing bowler than Boult and Southee and I'm pretty confident that he could bowl first change.

I wouldn't debut him in the UAE but definitely for the home series against SL he should be there.

 

[straw man]

From what I've seen Henry can generate great bounce, splice batsmen etc, when he has his release point right at its highest. When he gets slightly roundarm (as he did in the Sri Lanka A series iirc - at times on the grainy footage I could barely tell him apart from Milne) he might generate a little more swing but also loses some of the bounce - this ties into Kippax's point a few pages ago on Henry getting hit off a length, as I don't think it would be possible to do that if he was at his best.

I always characterised Wheeler as a left-handed Henry due to extremely similar action, however think Wheeler is now a little taller and is more the bounce bowler to Henry's bounce+swing.

Would love to see Henry debut in tests, most likely after the world cup, though I do concede to previous points in this thread that it's hard to justify four fast bowlers in the side now we have Neesham/Anderson and have lost Williamson's spin.

 

[straw man]

I hope Todd Astle got enough overs in his club/2nd XI stint. To make his trip worthwhile. Because so far in the token FC leg of this tour he has had one over. With only one potential innings left.

Feel for Astle, keeps getting shunted down both the batting and bowling orders - specialist fielder and team mascot by the looks of things.

 

[hendrix]

Henry's spot is Wagner's. While I wouldn't mind playing a 4th seamer even with Neesham/Anderson, Henry fits the bill as 3rd seamer more than 4th.

 

[Bahnz]

I'd be keen for Henry to be included in the side for a Hagley Oval greentop on an overcast December morning, but I think people are jumping the gun in saying that Henry is a good fit for the 3rd seamers spot more generally. He's a medium height, fast-medium paced outswing bowler, and I still have concerns about how he'd go in conditions when the ball isn't swinging enough to give the batsmen motion sickness. Still, obviously he's shown himself to be right up there with any of the other non-Southee/Boult seamers on this tour. It'll be interesting to see whether the selectors give him a shot during the SRL series, or whether they give Dougeh another go.

 

[hendrix]

I would guess he's just as tall as Dougeh and probably far less reliant on seaming and/or swinging conditions.

He gets good bounce. Certainly as much or more than Wagner, and he's a yard faster as well.

 

[Dan]

Dougeh simply isn't that good. Hobart still giving him credit now is utterly ridiculous IMO. Like Ishant Sharma dining out on that spell to Ponting for the next 5 years, and we've all seen how that turned out.

EDIT:
I know it's very "remove when he was good and of course he sucks", but that 9/60 game aside, he averages about 43 in Test match cricket, over 17 games. When the stars align he can be very good, but he's pretty mediocre whenever they don't.

 

[hendrix]

Doug just doesn't have the control at this point in time. I'd give him a couple of years before considering him again unless we have some serious injury/form issues with our top guys.

 

[Dan]

Yeah, I don't think there's much preventing him from being good, but right now he simply isn't.

 

[Bahnz]

I would guess he's just as tall as Dougeh and probably far less reliant on seaming and/or swinging conditions.

He gets good bounce. Certainly as much or more than Wagner, and he's a yard faster as well.

Nah. In that ODI v India, Henry was locked in the 135-142 zone. Yeah, Wagner generally bowls a bit slower than that in tests, but that's because he knows he has to conserve his energy over long spells with the old ball. When he bowls in shorter spells ( like he did in the 1st innings of the Auckland test v India) he's shown that he's also able to let it go in the 135-145 range. Pace wise I'd say there's no substantial difference.

 

[Flem274*]

I could just be because Henry is slim and Dougeh is stocky but I think Henry is a fair bit taller than Dougeh.

As for him being a tallish 130-140 outswing bowler - you've just described a lot of test bowlers there Bahnz. I don't expect him to run around destroying worlds from the get go but having Henry as first reserve quick behind our main three fills me with a lot of confidence, especially since he's versatile enough to play as a third seamer or as a Southee injury replacement to keep the right arm outswing/left arm inswing combination.

 

[Kippax]

 

[Kippax]

Hamish Marshall, eh.

Caught out by our 'most Hamishes per capita' thing.

 

[ohnoitsyou]

The thing about Henry is that he's only played 14 first class games, or less than two thirds of what kugglejuggle has

 

[Bahnz]

I could just be because Henry is slim and Dougeh is stocky but I think Henry is a fair bit taller than Dougeh.

As for him being a tallish 130-140 outswing bowler - you've just described a lot of test bowlers there Bahnz. I don't expect him to run around destroying worlds from the get go but having Henry as first reserve quick behind our main three fills me with a lot of confidence, especially since he's versatile enough to play as a third seamer or as a Southee injury replacement to keep the right arm outswing/left arm inswing combination.

Looking at the video of Henry from his ODI debut, and how he compares with Ross and Mitch McC, I'd say Henry is about 6'2" - so maybe a smidge taller than Boult and definitely shorter than Southee.

Ftr I didn't say that Henry wouldn't go all right in test cricket. In my first post I did say that in the right conditions I'd prefer him to Wagner (and I'd probably prefer him in the team for next year's tour of England as well). I just don't think he's ideally suited to being a 3rd seamer.

It's all hypotheticals though. As much as Hendo may rage about him, even he can't deny that Wagner has played a central, match-turning role in both of New Zealand's last two victories. Barring injury, he'll be the preferred option for 3rd seamer until at least the end of next summer and probably until the tour of England.

 

[hendrix]

Even if he is similar to Southee, that's no faint praise.

While I admit that Wagner has been great - by no means am I dropping him yet - Southee has even been better with the old ball. The fact that Henry delivers with a higher arm means he gets just as much if not more bounce than Southee. We're not actually at a point now where our swing bowlers are completely neutered when conditions don't suit or the ball loses its shine. We were a year ago and maybe Boult hasn't quite developed those skills yet but Southee certainly has them.

If you have someone resembling Southee then I want him in the squad. I get the horses for courses thing, but Wagner himself was a new ball bowler domestically. It took him about a year to figure out old ball bowling and it might take Henry just as long but given the skills he already has I don't see why he can't do it.

Fitness is the critical concern.

 

[Kippax]

Here's Hesson's new part-time spinner btw. He's a real work in progress, as is his batting.

 

[SteveNZ]

Dougeh simply isn't that good. Hobart still giving him credit now is utterly ridiculous IMO. Like Ishant Sharma dining out on that spell to Ponting for the next 5 years, and we've all seen how that turned out.

EDIT:
I know it's very "remove when he was good and of course he sucks", but that 9/60 game aside, he averages about 43 in Test match cricket, over 17 games. When the stars align he can be very good, but he's pretty mediocre whenever they don't.

I honestly believe that's an attitudinal thing rather than an ability thing.

You're completely right to point out his mediocre average. The stars aligning probably relates to his application and preparation to his craft, rather than anything else.

I was at the ground in Dunedin v SA in '12 (?), the drawn Test due to rain. Doug looked every inch a Test bowler in that match, v world class players. Hit the deck very hard, good shape, everything looked pure. And in behind him, we had a guy called Southee who couldn't get to the crease.

I'm not saying Doug has the same ability as Tim, but if he'd worked as hard as him over the last couple of years he'd be in a very different place.

 

[hendrix]

The nagging suspicion with Bracewell (as with Sodhi) is that his action just doesn't lend itself well to consistency. Something about the way he muscles the ball through.

we'll see though, he's done allright recently.

 

[SteveNZ]

The nagging suspicion with Bracewell (as with Sodhi) is that his action just doesn't lend itself well to consistency. Something about the way he muscles the ball through.

we'll see though, he's done allright recently.

I've always felt he had a very structurally sound, easy on the body action (as evidenced by his lack of injuries). But his poor discipline means you or I could never be proven right or wrong.

On Henry, he's a hell of a product and I'm a massive fan - have been since very early on. But there's no place for him in our Test side. He's an opening bowler, and isn't a better third seamer option than Wagner except on a mossy green one. Very good third seamer option in ODIs with two new balls, however.

If Southee or Boult were to go down, straight in.