Nathan Lyon

[91Jmay]

So where does this gollum looking ****er rank all time? Top 5 offspinner for sure - ATG as an offie?

Murali a billion miles ahead, Harbajan, Ashwin & Swann possibly better but don't feel massively confident in saying that.

He is 21st all time in wickets now, will go past Imran Khan & Danny V by end of series after passing Lillee this test.

Massively underappreciated, and obviously gets bonus points for turning it on in the only cricket that really matters.

 

[Daemon]

After a brilliant display of fast bowling just hours ago it disgusts me that I have to think about this bunch of uninspiring individuals.

 

[GoodAreasShane]

Lyon definitely better than Swann these days. He would never run off crying mid series just to protect his bowling average either

 

[91Jmay]

Lyon definitely better than Swann these days. He would never run off crying mid series just to protect his bowling average either

This is based on pure feelycraft and could be utter bollocks but I feel like Swann was a better bowler at great players of spin (some of his spells in India at Tendulkar, Dravid, VVS were like Warne levels of good) but ran away as you said and also tended to be very one dimensional. Just bowled outside off, big turn at really good pace. Lyon has a ton more variation.

I was going to say Lyon is helped by having DRS, but Tim Paine negates that advantage. I agree he has had a better career than Swann without doubt, just probably take Swann head to head at their peak.

EDIT
Don't think it was at VVS now that I think about but Pujara & Kohli also in there but I think it was at Mumbai when we smashed them. He literally choked them to death, got 7 in the game iirc but he was insanely better than those numbers.

 

[Daemon]

Most spinners cheat by bending their elbow, lyon cheated by bending over his mistress

 

[Starfighter]

Lyon has a ton more variation.

I feel like we're not watching the same bowler. Lyon doesn't vary his flight, pace or line that much.

 

[Flem274*]

he's the best offie i've ever seen. harbhajan just disappeared mid to end career and while swann was always the goods lyons done more now. ashwin only good for a trundle in the right conditions.

 

[vcs]

he's the best offie i've ever seen. harbhajan just disappeared mid to end career and while swann was always the goods lyons done more now. ashwin only good for a trundle in the right conditions.

Yeah, it feels like he's been better than Ashwin for ages now but his returns in his last few series before this one have been middling at best. No doubt he's a better bowler at this moment in time though.

Good on him I guess, he's got there by persistence rather than any outstanding periods of form, which is fair enough given that Australia will only ever have spinners play a holding role unless they're as good as Warne.

Ashwin's peak was much better but it came when India's schedule consisted of mainly Asia and the WI, so he'll probably be remembered as a home bully.

 

[Dan]

The other mark in his favour is that it's insanely difficult to bowl off spin in Australia.

 

[morgieb]

The other mark in his favour is that it's insanely difficult to bowl off spin in Australia.

Though Ashwin and Jadeja did do pretty well here last time they toured here, but yes that's closer to the exception than the norm (and against a batting lineup that 20 years ago would've been no better than average at Shield level). Herath had a good tour here in 2013 but other than that it's hard to find great examples of touring offies doing well.

 

[Maximas]

Though Ashwin and Jadeja did do pretty well here last time they toured here, but yes that's closer to the exception than the norm (and against a batting lineup that 20 years ago would've been no better than average at Shield level). Herath had a good tour here in 2013 but other than that it's hard to find great examples of touring offies doing well.

And ironically completely out-bowled Lyon

 

[OverratedSanity]

He's definitely better than Harbhajan and Ashwin. Ashwin actually did OK at times overseas last year. Thought his performance at Adelaide was very underappreciated. Mixes it up with the kind of utter trash that Lyon never bowls though. Also he's fat and unfit so he can't bowl long spells without injuring himself which is a crippling deficiency for a spinner.

Swann is the only offie I thought was better but his career was over in a flash (relatively) so it's hard to say.

 

[vcs]

He's definitely better than Harbhajan and Ashwin. Ashwin actually did OK at times overseas last year. Thought his performance at Adelaide was very underappreciated. Mixes it up with the kind of utter trash that Lyon never bowls though. Also he's fat and unfit so he can't bowl long spells without injuring himself which is a crippling deficiency for a spinner.

Swann is the only offie I thought was better but his career was over in a flash (relatively) so it's hard to say.

Ashwin used to keep it relatively simple and bowled like a proper Test off-spinner till 2017 or so. Then his galaxy brain took over.

 

[Daemon]

The other mark in his favour is that it's insanely difficult to bowl off spin in Australia.

This is true for most offspinners who don’t learn their trade on decks that offer more bounce. Lyon’s bowling is very much suited to Australian conditions though, and it’s only recently he’s learnt to bowl well on the more subcontinental type conditions.

You’re a product of your environment is what I’m saying. He should get credit for having to bowl so much in Australia instead of tracks resembling kabaddi fields, but at the end of the day it’s still home.

 

[stephen]

There is a myth going about the early 00s Indian side being good against spin. They were good against wrist spin but collapsed on any number of occasions against finger spin. Clarke's 6/9 provably being the worst case but they were notably weak against finger spin, particularly on home pitches which strongly favoured finger spinners but not wrist spinners.

Lyon Is the best off spinner I've seen outside Asian conditions but was probably not as good as Ashwin in Asia.

 

[Maximas]

Yeah can think of plenty of times around 2012-2016 in Asia where he was expected to lead the pack and dominate but failed to make an impact.

Always found it fascinating for example that Warne preferred bowling at the Gabba of all venues, whereas at the SCG when it took more turn McGill would somewhat often outbowl him

 

[vcs]

Anyway, Herath is better than every other spinner since Murali retired, by a fairly comfortable margin, IMO. What a man.

 

[stephen]

Anyway, Herath is better than every other spinner since Murali retired, by a fairly comfortable margin, IMO. What a man.

Home track bully but yes, he's the best since Murali retired.

If you were asking me to rank spinners since the retirement of Murali I'd do it, twice.

In Asia:

Herath
Ashwin
Jadeja
Swann
Lyon
Tahir

Rest of the world:

Lyon
Tahir
Herath
Ashwin
Jadeja

 

[morgieb]

Home track bully but yes, he's the best since Murali retired.

If you were asking me to rank spinners since the retirement of Murali I'd do it, twice.

In Asia:

Herath
Ashwin
Jadeja
Swann
Lyon
Tahir

Rest of the world:

Lyon
Tahir
Herath
Ashwin
Jadeja

I guess, but I would not want to be bowling spin in unfavourable conditions beside that seam attack.

 

[vcs]

Are you taking ODIs into account as well? If not, Shah should be on that list and not Tahir.