Nathan Hauritz's role in the Australian test side: Should he really be a fixture?

[Flem274*]

Mnay decent/average spinners in recent times such a Boje, Giles, Paul Harris & Adams, Croft, Krejza, Benn

 

[Flem274*]

I saw that Taylor century. Taylor should have been gone early but Johnson ****ed it up. When Taylor gets his eye in and plays like that, very few spinners today would be able to stop him. Swann, probably.

 

[sledger]

Is that Nathan Hauritz on the left?

Nah, defo in the middle imo.

 

[aussie]

I saw that Taylor century. Taylor should have been gone early but Johnson ****ed it up. When Taylor gets his eye in and plays like that, very few spinners today would be able to stop him. Swann, probably.

Taylor's century was @ Hamilton. I mentioned the Wellington 1st test.

But since you brought, I saw it too & as i told your fellow Kiwi Howise earlier in this thread when he brought up a similar point:

But that drop of Hauritz by Johnson was all down to Taylor's brain-freeze at the crease with a mixture of utter contempt towards Haurtiz's bowling - rather than anything special from Hauritz. Otherwise Taylor batting againts Hauritz pretty much proves my point, that good batsmen should not have any problem facing Hauritz. When he bowls accurately they should be good enough to negotiate/respect that - but at the same time when they want to make the transition to attack him it wouldn't be very risky at all.

I would have certainly backed Swann, Ajmal, Randiv to stop or test Taylor under that circumstance, thus making it a much more even battle between good player of spin & good spinner.

 

[Flem274*]

Haha, Taylor's brain freeze wasn't out of contempt. Taylor has a brain freeze at least once a series. It's the way he is.

Probably happens because of the pressure of his wicket.

 

[Flem274*]

And Ajmal has had a go at Taylor.

It didn't work very well.

 

[aussie]

Haha, Taylor's brain freeze wasn't out of contempt. Taylor has a brain freeze at least once a series. It's the way he is.

Probably happens because of the pressure of his wicket.

Whether Taylor has a brain-freeze once a series or not. How does that change the fact the after that brain-freeze shot early in his Hamilton hundred, that after he composed himself played Haurtiz without total ease?

And Ajmal has had a go at Taylor.

It didn't work very well.

I dint see that test. But the Ajmal that Taylor faced isn't as good as the Ajmal that was playing in test this summer in England. This summer in ENG is when Saeed finally translated his excellent T20 & ODI bowling form on to the test stage.

 

[Flem274*]

Whether Taylor has a brain-freeze once a series or not. How does that change the fact the after that brain-freeze shot early in his Hamilton hundred, that after he composed himself played Haurtiz without total ease?

Because if Johnson had caught the damn ball there would have been no Hamilton hundred.

Ross Taylor in hot form=destroyed spinners.

I dint see that test. But the Ajmal that Taylor faced isn't as good as the Ajmal that was playing in test this summer in England. This summer in ENG is when Saeed finally translated his excellent T20 & ODI bowling form on to the test stage.

Haha, you didn't see the test yet you're saying the England test is when he got good?

Ajmal was the same bowler in NZ he was in England. The difference was Taylor played him better than the English.

 

[aussie]

Because if Johnson had caught the damn ball there would have been no Hamilton hundred.

Ross Taylor in hot form=destroyed spinners.

If Johnson had caught the ball, it would have gone down as dumb batting my Taylor - instead of good bowling by Hauritz. Taylor going on to dominate Hauritz after he focused & composed himself proves my point that when good batsmen bat sensibly againts him, they would have no problem.

Haha, you didn't see the test yet you're saying the England test is when he got good?

Ajmal was the same bowler in NZ he was in England. The difference was Taylor played him better than the English.

I saw him @ the MCG vs AUS just after that that NZ test & on his debut vs SRI & it was very evident the improvment in his test bowling this summer compared to the 3 tests i saw of him last year.

 

[Flem274*]

If Johnson had caught the ball, it would have gone down as dumb batting my Taylor - instead of good bowling by Hauritz. Taylor going on to dominate Hauritz after he focused & composed himself proves my point that when good batsmen bat sensibly againts him, they would have no problem.

So if Hauritz gets wickets, it's dumb batting. If he gets smashed, he sucks?

Could you be any more biased?

 

[andyc]

No need for the insults, Flem

 

[Flem274*]

A spade is a spade is a spade.

But noted and will edit.

 

[aussie]

So if Hauritz gets wickets, it's dumb batting. If he gets smashed, he sucks?

Could you be any more of a biased dickhead?

Haha. Typical CW trait of poster resorting to personal insults in simple debate, one of the many reason why the quality of posting in cricketchat has declined in recent years.

Back to the point though.

Firstly, No if Hauritz gets a good wicket/wickets to good bowling i will applaud him for it. Just that in his career since his recall vs South Africa 08/09, to date especially againts good opposition batsmen that has not done that much if at all. Esepcially when he has gotten turning pitches or wearing 4th/5th day tracks.

If he gets smashed to date since his recall vs SA 08/09, it has usually followed a very common trend of when he bowls accurately good batsmen have been enough to negotiate/respect that - but at the same time when they want to make the transition to attack him it wouldn't be very risky at all, since his bowling repetoire is limited.

So theirfore a combination of consistently not being able to be effective on turning pitches or wearing 4th/5th day tracks againts good opposition. Along with consistently failing to provide stop good batsmen with contain good batsmen when they want to move into gear 2 aggressive mode againts him - makes him suck as a test match off-spinner.

 

[andyc]

Haha. Typical CW trait of poster resorting to personal insults in simple debate, one of the many reason why the quality of posting in cricketchat has declined in recent years.

Also not needed, especially when I'd already talked to Flem about it.

 

[Flem274*]

Haha. Typical CW trait of poster resorting to personal insults in simple debate, one of the many reason why the quality of posting in cricketchat has declined in recent years.

Back to the point though.

Firstly, No if Hauritz gets a good wicket/wickets to good bowling i will applaud him for it. Just that in his career since his recall vs South Africa 08/09, to date especially againts good opposition batsmen that has not done that much if at all. Esepcially when he has gotten turning pitches or wearing 4th/5th day tracks.

If he gets smashed to date since his recall vs SA 08/09, it has usually followed a very common trend of when he bowls accurately good batsmen have been enough to negotiate/respect that - but at the same time when they want to make the transition to attack him it wouldn't be very risky at all, since his bowling repetoire is limited.

So theirfore a combination of consistently not being able to be effective on turning pitches or wearing 4th/5th day tracks againts good opposition. Along with consistently failing to provide stop good batsmen with contain good batsmen when they want to move into gear 2 aggressive mode againts him - makes him suck as a test match off-spinner.

Your criteria is very arbitrary.

Vettori gets most ODI wickets due to luring batsmen into "dumb" ideas, does that make him crap?

Paul Harris, your example of a decent test spinner, does exactly the same as Vettori but in tests.

Hauritz takes wickets against non-Indian sides. He's a pretty decent offie.

 

[aussie]

Your criteria is very arbitrary.

Vettori gets most ODI wickets due to luring batsmen into "dumb" ideas, does that make him crap?

Paul Harris, your example of a decent test spinner, does exactly the same as Vettori but in tests.

Hauritz takes wickets against non-Indian sides. He's a pretty decent offie.

How is it arbitrary, the evidence is backed by historical evidence of how spinners perform in test history. Whic is the role of any normal spinner (who aint of the calibre of a Warne, Murali or O'Reillly, Kumble, Gibbs, Grimmett, Underwood, Gupte etc etc) is on the 4th or 5th day wearing wicket or turner, is to bowl his side to victory ( by taking 5 wicket hauls).

Second Calibre/Average/decent/joke spinners like a Vettori, Benn, Harris, Giles, Boje, Tufnell, Greg Matthews, Croft, Roger Haper, Adams etc etc etc. Have been able to do that in their careers @ some point in their careers againts good teams, when given in such conditions.

To date when he encountered such conditions all Hauritz been able to do is be accurate & not really penetrative which really isn't good enough for a test spinner to be a regular member of a test XI.


Vettori ODI record is irrelevant here since we are talking about tests. In ODIs that is how you are supposed the generally get batsmen out. Since quite obviously batsmen look to score all the time, bowlers generally get batsmen out to overly aggressive/dumb shots more often cracking deliveries. In tests Vettori record has troubled the best of batsmen on turners quite consistently i.e his record vs AUS - you of all ppl should know this.

Paul Harris although he indeed gets alot of wickets to dumb shots in tets. Has taken wickets on turners 5th/day wearing tracks againts good opposition:

- Karachi or Lahore 2007 vs PAK
- Capetown 09 vs AUS
- Centurion 09 vs ENG

But since the centurion tests vs ENG watching Harris bowl, id say he is showing signs that maybe he has lost the ability to reproduce those 3 performaces.

 

[Flem274*]

How is it arbitrary, the evidence is backed by historical evidence of how spinners perform in test history. Whic is the role of any normal spinner (who aint of the calibre of a Warne, Murali or O'Reillly, Kumble, Gibbs, Grimmett, Underwood, Gupte etc etc) is on the 4th or 5th day wearing wicket or turner, is to bowl his side to victory ( by taking 5 wicket hauls).

Second Calibre/Average/decent/joke spinners like a Vettori, Benn, Harris, Giles, Boje, Tufnell, Greg Matthews, Croft, Roger Haper, Adams etc etc etc. Have been able to do that in their careers @ some point in their careers againts good teams, when given in such conditions.

To date when he encountered such conditions all Hauritz been able to do is be accurate & not really penetrative which really isn't good enough for a test spinner to be a regular member of a test XI.


Vettori ODI record is irrelevant here since we are talking about tests. In ODIs that is how you are supposed the generally get batsmen out. Since quite obviously batsmen look to score all the time, bowlers generally get batsmen out to overly aggressive/dumb shots more often cracking deliveries. In tests Vettori record has troubled the best of batsmen on turners quite consistently i.e his record vs AUS - you of all ppl should know this.

Paul Harris although he indeed gets alot of wickets to dumb shots in tets. Has taken wickets on turners 5th/day wearing tracks againts good opposition:

- Karachi or Lahore 2007 vs PAK
- Capetown 09 vs AUS
- Centurion 09 vs ENG

But since the centurion tests vs ENG watching Harris bowl, id say he is showing signs that maybe he has lost the ability to reproduce those 3 performaces.

Not really penetrative?

18 wickets against Pakistan (who are good against spin).
11 wickets against the WI
10 against England
60 wickets overall from 16 tests.

He's a solid spinner, and deserves his place. Hauritz shouldn't be dropped just because, shock horror, he failed against India at home. Because spinners run through India at home all the time.

 

[Prince EWS]

Amongst a lot of other stuff that can only be described as propaganda, aussie has made a useful point about Hauritz that hasn't really been acknowledged.

I don't think anyone seriously believes that Hauritz is actually a better bowler than, for example, Peter Siddle or Stuart Clark - he gets selected because he provides something different. Shane Watson's presence significantly diminishes the selection value of a fourth quick and Hauritz is picked in the hope that he might prosper in conditions that others wouldn't. However, as (surprisingly) good as he's been in Tests so far, he is yet to actually do that. Hauritz's best bowling has actually come at times you'd expect another quick to be effective too - there's no doubt in my mind that Pete Siddle would be a better job of bowling on Day 2 than Hauritz, for example. Aussie repeatedly bringing up the lack of a good Day 5 performances isn't just him sprouting crap; it's very relevant to the debate over whether Hauritz should play.

I wouldn't drop Hauritz yet for the reasons I extrapolated earlier in the thread, but I wouldn't be so dismissive of the idea that bowling well in the fourth innings is particularly important for him. If he can't do that we really would be better off picking the extra quick as he's not offering the variety he's being selected for.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Personally, I just don't see Hauritz being that effective on subcontinent, and slower, wickets in general. His type of bowling is reflective of where he grew up, subtle changes of pace, not a huge amount of turn and a reliance on a good sliding ball to get wickets. The last bit is especially neutralised in subcontinent conditions, where it doesn't kick on at pace to catch LBWs, like you seem him do to left handers quite regularly (think Strauss and Cook in the Ashes).

He bowls with a lot of sidespin, whereas in general bowlers with a bit more overspin, and the seam pointing towards leg slip rather than backward square leg (as offspinners), have more success in India, where they can get ball bounces and bites off the wicket more.

It means that the biggest asset that he offers Ponting - controlling the tempo of the game - is thwarted in the subcontinent. Remember when we had Krezja, who was seeking to bowl wonderballs all the time, and teams would score freely against him and against our attack whenever he was on.

 

[aussie]

Not really penetrative?

18 wickets against Pakistan (who are good against spin).
11 wickets against the WI
10 against England
60 wickets overall from 16 tests.

He's a solid spinner, and deserves his place. Hauritz shouldn't be dropped just because, shock horror, he failed against India at home. Because spinners run through India at home all the time.

SMH.

Firstly all those wickets (two 5 wickets hauls) againts a joke Pakistan batting line-up dont count. Thats the same PAK who gave Marcus North 6 wickets on Lord's on pitch that wasn't even turning. It might as well & have taken those wickets vs Bangladesh the way PAK have been batting in the last 6 months.

Did you even watch that series vs WIndies?. In the final two test @ Adelaide & Perth when Hauritz got turning tracks he failed. Case in point the Adelaide test when Benn from the windies got 5 wickets when the ball was begging to turn on day 2. Haurtiz went wicketless againts the windies batsmen when he got his chance to bowl - Marcus North as he did in the recent Mohali test had bowl since Hauritz struggled to be penetrative.

Same thing again @ Petth in the final innings when the ball began began to turn when AUS where bowled out 150 as Benn got big turn & Bravo got his off-cutters to move big. Hauritz was accurate but not penetrative on the wearing 5th day pitch & it was the fast-bowlers who won AUS that test.


I already told showed you that on the final of the 1st Ashes test when he got a turning pitch he struggled to bowl ENG out. Just fairly accurate - but never producing any wicket taking penetration in that innings nor at any point during the Ashes.


His failing in India is just a culmination of two years of consistently failing to do the same thing on turners/wearing pitches againts good opposition worldwide. If he had stepped up, it would have the first signs that he was turning the corner.

Although IND play spin brilliantly at home. Non great spinners who had the basics right as i told you before like Jason Krejza, Greg Matthews, Paul Adams, Nicky Boje, Ashley Giles. Kaneria etc have taken 5 wickets hauls in IND are on turners/wearing 4th & 5th wickets just like the one Hauritz got @ Mohali. Geez..

All proving clearly that Hauritz is not a good test match spinner & does not deserve his place.