Viv averaged 37 in that tour...... Very good by context, but that tour is overplayed. And it wasn't like Viv hit is peak back then or anything. Murali very clearly became a very different bowler post doosra. And in the 4 matches he played there, he got to bowl in Aussie second innings only once; and Australia declared after 4 fell. A pretty big pushback for a spinner if you ask me.
39. But fair it’s not ATG. You could say his performances in the last three tests were
Yeah so with a bare minimum sample size, and a proven series where he didn't perform against the best side, that is enough to dock him points.
I am not asking you to not dock him points, I am asking not to dock them too heavily..... His first tour (in which he played 2 matches) was before the bowler he became, played only twice in the second, was pretty good in the RoW game and most importantly, never got chance to bowl to Australia in their second innings in the first 3 games and Australia declared after 4 wickets in the last. Wer had the rest of the bowlers a bit better, Murali would had returned with more middling numbers.
I only am docking him for his 2007 performance. I don't consider him a complete fail in Aus, a partial fail tho.
His 40+ avg isn't as impressive given he was quite often outperformed by others in contrast to his reputation here.
Better than a 75 bowling average in Aus.
Not really because of lol sample size. Viv has more instances of being mid when he shouldn't have been.
Except Viv is not.
Viv is ATG in Aus and Eng, probably in contention for the best modern bat in those countries. He was pretty good at home(not ATG level tho), pretty good in India(including an ATG 4th innings knock), and good in Pak(including an ATG series vs Imran and Co). He barely played three matches in NZ.
Even without WSC he averages 48 in Australia @an SR of 75+. This includes a very good series as a debutant vs Lillee/Thomson, an ATG series in 1979, and one more good series. And he had a good record across venues(so people can’t use the Sydney argument, like they do with Sachin). And yes the WSC should be included, as the pitches were opposite of the batting friendly, the intensity high, and quality of cricket better than in non WSC.
I can't have an ATG bat barely averaging over 50 over an ATG bowler with 800 wickets at 22.7. Viv was very clearly not that great all the time, so why should I not count his bad series and underwhelming record against him? There's no reason beyond vibes and feels.
You didn't respond to our points. And take out minnows from Muralis record. See how it looks. And how about him averaging 27 away from home? We can't have that either.
His record across countries isn't as dominant as his reputation suggests, which hurts his standing in my eyes. It's largely England where he was ATG, everywhere else it doesn't stand out as much as you want me to believe. This is telling given that he was largely on great teams throughout his career.
He is easily the best bat modern bat in Aus. Averages 3-4 points below Sachin only, but super high SR, his 1979 series there is the best by a modern bat, and apart from that, 2 other pretty good series as well. If you include WSC(which you should, given the standard of cricket outside was lower, and the intensity and professionalism higher in WSC) his average is 50+. Although good record across venues(unlike Sachin).
What's the deal with Sachin and Sydney?? He has great innings in Adelaide and Perth as well.
I can't really agree with including WSC which wasn't recognized as Tests. And I still don't think for a supposed ATG who's rep is based on playing pacers well only averaging 47 in Tests there is not great, just good. It wasn't like Australia had a great team all the times he played there.
In his initial tours they were and he did brilliantly vs them, 75- very good, 79-best in Aus by a modern bat. And then one more good tour as well. And for WSC, we can agree to disagree, but his stuff in WSC vs Lillee on bowler friendly pitches is objectify more valuable than Gavaskar bashing weak Aussie attacks. And his SR was out of the world in Aus: 70+. And averaging 48 is close enough to 50. And he has a good split across venues, unlike Sachin. Everyone agrees Viv is one of the best touring bats to Australia, and pitches there in his time were horrible to bat on.