Muttiah Muralitharan vs Sachin Tendulkar

[the big bambino]

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You're not doing justice to murali in your attempt to defend him. Were his stats in India and Aus not so great because he had or did not have adequate support from his fellow bowlers? Generally, I'd say murali would have had an even lower average if he bowled with a better attack

Besides, there's an easier explanation. Australia is a spin graveyard with the most unfriendly pitches for a spinner. The Indian batting lineups murali faced in the 90s and 00s featured all time great players of spin. No shame in Murali copping it to such high quality players.

You challenge me in your 1st sentence then go on to imitate my points in your own repetitive words. Classic!

 

[JontyPanesar]

You challenge me in your 1st sentence then go on to imitate my points in your own repetitive words. Classic!

I misread what you had written about Murali bowling in India, which I read as his average worsening when he received support from Mendis. The downside of reading and typing from an iPhone. Sorry.

 

[kyear2]

Murali is closer to the claim of best in his class when going through spin bowlers than Sachin is to best in his class among batsman; no arguments from me there. But that's apples and oranges for me.

When we're judging who is the 'better cricketer', I view it as a player's ability to enjoy success in the widest variety of conditions and skills against the highest level of players, regardless of whether that's seam bowling, spin bowling, batting v seam, batting v. pace. Sachin had the skills to succeed everywhere and against players of the highest caliber, seam or spin. I don't deny that I view this question in a way that is inherently biased against spinners. Spinners require conditions to be somewhat suitable before they can do major damage. Murali has some gaping holes in his resume, unfortunately for him. I guess I wouldn't fixate too much on getting creamed by Lara, but his performances in India and Australia are the gaping holes I'd always point to. Put it another way, I view Sachin as closer to being a complete batsman than I view Murali as being a complete bowler. I view McGrath and Marshall as more complete bowlers than Murali given their abilities to perform in pace-unfriendly conditions.

[Now is it possible for a bowler to still do some amazing things on a spin-unfriendly pitch? Sure, through dip, drift, and tons of revs, a spinner can always extract something, but we have yet to see it. I'm a huge fan of spin bowling, watching batsmen play spin, and dustbowls, but I have to be honest about a spinner's impact on a cricket match]

Well said and some good points in there.

 

[the big bambino]

I misread what you had written about Murali bowling in India, which I read as his average worsening when he received support from Mendis. The downside of reading and typing from an iPhone. Sorry.

My apologies too. I wasn't overly friendly in my previous post.

 

[uvelocity]

 

[JontyPanesar]

My apologies too. I wasn't overly friendly in my previous post.

No worries, I can cop it

But now that I can more carefully read your response, a few thoughts:

I don't think Murali struggled in Australia because of Oz batsmen's tactics or the fact that Murali lacked support...or any more so than when Murali bowled anywhere else outside the subcontinent. Australian pitches are just terrible for spinners. It's always funny to hear every spinner before their first tour of Oz how they're "looking forward to the bounce" they'll get. B.S. The ball doesn't really grip and kick (which is the kind of bounce a spinner wants); it just goes gun-barrel straight with true bounce (I'm generalizing of course). It also didn't help that he was called for chucking in Australia and we're dealing with sample size issues. And on the 2007 muppets tour, he was still milked for runs; I don't think batsmen were intentionally trying to target the other/weaker bowlers.

Murali's record in India is not flattering (he only bowled in one match with Mendis). He had one magnificent performance on a helpful pitch at the Kotla, but even there, Kumble outbowled him imho. In relatively helpful conditions but away from the comforts of home, Murali was not able to get on top of some of the best batsmen against spin. No shame in that, but India was a fair place for him to prove himself

I fully agree that Murali is as skilled as an offspinner could possibly be. The number of different factors he varied with respect to each delivery was magnificent. From offie/toppie/doosra, to line and length, to the control he had over his pace, to the number of revs he would impart on any given delivery, there was so much he varied oh so subtly. Even in Tendulkar's pomp, did he have that level of skill? I'm not sure, but even if we agree that Murali is the more skilled cricketer, I still would say he's not the better cricketer

And I agree on the whole greentop v. dustbowl hypocrisy. Malcolm Conn drives me up the wall when he seems to imply that only Australian pitches are good cricket pitches. As if spin should only be reserved for the fifth day. Screw you.

 

[the big bambino]

Agree with your post. I've done a potted history of spinners in Australia and it shows just how awful a place it is for spinners. Even Warne shelled out in the shield. I was amused at Benaud's belief that Perth was a good place for spinners on account of its bounce. Historically it isn't the case there or most pitches in Oz and I just wonder in amazement at his arrogance believing he knows than the stats. You see Australia's hostile attitude to spinning pitches with the campaign against Sydney when it turned for a brief while in the 80s. Yet a venue that turns would actually prove our reputation to prepare a wide variety of wickets to develop all of cricket's skills.

As to Murali I believe I heard Ponting mention the tactic to deny him wickets. The series against India where he had Mendis' support was in SL but I get your point abt him struggling in India. His record v Aus and India away is a hole in his record. Then again I don't know many bowlers who faced up to 2 such great batting sides. I'm sure Marshall never bowled to anything of the quality of SRT, Sehwag, Dravid, Laxman, Ganguly, Gambhir, Azharuddin, Sidhu, Hayden, Ponting, Slater, Taylor, the Waughs, Gilchrist, Martyn, Hussey, Langer, Boon and Clarke: Even Symonds and Lehmann. Whew! No wonder he shelled out.

I enjoy the variety of wickets tests offer. Greentops, roads, dustbowls - maybe go retro and bring back matting - and agree with your opinion on Conn. What Conn fails to mention is that Aussie pitches can crack up on day 5 which ironically favours pace bowlers more than spin. I can think of John Snow and Caddick at Sydney, Kapil Dev in Melbourne as well as Ambrose and Walsh in Perth as examples. So Conn is wrong about the place he has for spinners in the game. In Oz they can be squeezed out by pace men even on day 5.

 

[smash84]

i enjoy all types of cricket pitches except the roads.......

 

[Zinzan]

I'd place Tendulkar up there as one of the top 5 Asian cricketers of all time, but I'd def place Murali & Imran ahead of him simply because they were more likely to win test matches for their respective teams.

 

[karan316]

Ok, so this thread was another attempt to underestimate Tendulkar.. Congrats..Mission Accomplished.

 

[smash84]

who is underestimating SRT?

 

[Burgey]

It's ended up overestimating Murali instead.

 

[Maximas]

Yep, this thread is just a conspiracy against SRT, not another chance for the ATG crowd on this forum to go at it again

 

[Jono]

Quit your bitching fellas.

 

[Senile Sentry]

Sachin easily the better batsman.

Murali the better spinner by miles.

Would be a tie as far as fielding is concerned.

 

[Riggins]

Sachin easily the better batsman.

Murali the better spinner by miles.

Jeez, that's a pretty wild opinion.

 

[smash84]

 

[Black_Warrior]

Sachin easily the better batsman.

Murali the better spinner by miles.

Would be a tie as far as fielding is concerned.

I am not too sure about that to be honest. Tendulkar was a pretty good spinner, and he could bowl both off spin and leg spin without a suspect bowling action. Its just that India had too many spinners already so he didn't have to bowl much otherwise along with his 100th century and 200th test match, we would also be waiting for his 1000th test wicket.

 

[Coronis]

Murali.

 

[Esperance]

Sachin.