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Murali bowling with a astraight arm

Son Of Coco

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
dude said:
proves as much as me having seen that video from channel4 mate. i've tried to straigten his arm once over a game of pool and it is bent..it is bent. there's nothing anyone can do to straighten it not even him, many know this even bruce yardley has tried thats the reason yardley goes on a limb and states "i will defend this man to my dying day"

Is it completely fixed in place though dude? If not then he can still throw - those posters who believe it's only a throw if your arm can straighten fully should check their facts before they post.

I missed the video, as they're not showing it where I am at the moment, but I think it'd be better to see Murali bowling against class batsmen with the brace on, then you'd really get an idea of whether there was any difference in effectiveness as far as his bowling is concerned (i.e: is he bowling as he normally does).

Part of the issue seems to concern hyperextension due to the pace at which Murali's arm comes through. Now if what you're claiming is true dude, then a massive degree of hyperextension causing Murali's arm to straighten a great deal would be impossible would it not? Obviously there seems to be a bit of stuff to sort out here re: the legitimacy of his action. Unfortunately the ICC have informed all the spinners of their presence at a few tourneys in Sept to check spinners levels of flexion. It probably would have been a better idea to just turn up and do what they had to do - prior warning is surely not necessary.
 

Son Of Coco

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
dude said:
This is what i last read about the situation (posted for the benefit of those you did not get a chance to read it*)

Shahriar Khan
Sunday July 11, 2004
The Observer

Bowling for the television cameras at Lord's last Monday, with his arm held firm in a cast to restrict his alleged flexion, Muttiah Muralitharan went a long way to proving he is not a chucker.
Even confirmed cynics were convinced.

Yet so widely have the seeds of doubt been sown, Murali knows some people - especially his Australian critics whose vocal objections have forced him to withdraw from Sri Lanka's current tour there - will never believe he does not consistently break Law 24.3. You will be able to make your own judgment when the Channel 4 programme is shown during the Lord's Test.

I have been fortunate enough to be a close-at-hand witness to some of the key moments in his controversial career since he made his debut 12 years ago and the Murali I know is not a cheat.

In conversation last week, after subjecting himself to the scrutiny of yet more cameras and expert analysis, Murali speaks with anger in his eyes about his continuing ordeal.

He recalls vividly the day his nightmare began, the day Darrell Hair called him for chucking on Boxing Day of the 1995 Test against Australia in front of 55,000 people at the Melbourne Cricket Ground.

'In such a big stadium where the seats are like going up straight to the sky, it looked as if the whole world was looking down on me,' he says.

'And I didn't know what for. I didn't even understand what he [Hair] was saying. At first I thought it was my feet. He didn't explain properly. To me, the ball was no different to all the others.

'Seven times in three overs he called me but he didn't call me every ball, when they were so much the same! He was treating me like I was stupid. I'm not. And meaning I was a cheat, which I didn't know how to be. I just didn't know why they were doing it. It made no sense. From where the umpire stands how could they see if my arm was bent?

'Of course afterwards, the story came out that umpire [Ross] Emerson was asked by an Australian Cricket Board official to report me well before I played in front of him. It was a horrible time, hard to cope with. All I knew was about bowling like I did.

'The team, Duleep Mendis, Dav Whatmore, Arjuna Ranatunga, Aravinda de Silva, were great. There were tears in the hotel after, with them in the rooms, long nights. But it made the team stronger. We fought, got to the World Series final and then just a few months later won the World Cup. Against Australia.'

Muralitharan is a bowler of undeniable genius, a unique spinner who has taken a world record 527 Test wickets and who might even fulfil the prediction of his closest rival, Shane Warne, and go on to take 1,000. It is sad, therefore, that he should have to resort to a public relations exercise on British television.

Bowling in a singlet at the Nursery Ground at Lord's, he shows Mark Nicholas's TV crew how, with a steel and plaster elbow brace that Arnold Schwarzenegger could not straighten, he bowls with a bent arm of minimal flexion throughout.

There are some witnesses - including an English international umpire - who are very dubious about the legitimacy of Murali's action before the demonstration. But, as he bowls the off-break, top-spinner and the much-discussed 'doosra', there is no palpable difference in elbow-to-arm flexion with or without the brace from forearm to bicep.

What the exercise discloses, uncannily, is how much the dip, rotation and pivot of his shoulder, at the point of delivery, influences Murali's action. His shoulders flex more than yours or mine because of his elbows, and it is his shoulders that generate so much of his ball speed, rotating as they do on an axis greater than the norm. The human eye cannot take in all that.

The Laws of Cricket do not adequately make provision for such a quirky action. It is unlike any other in the history of the game.

To his credit, Murali appreciates the dilemma of cricket's administrators, even if he resents the impact they have had on his career. The ICC are custodians of the game - 'And I respect them for that,' he says. 'There are many people who genuinely want to help to find out the truth. But I know there are some - and they always get other people to say it for them - who think I am not an honest bowler. That makes me boil.

'I don't feel like a symbol, but I can feel that I am a bit of a test case. What they decide for me, will really set the standard for the game.'

After the experiment, Murali goes along to the ICC offices at Lord's for an informal chat with David Richardson. As the ICC general manager (cricket operations) explains: 'All suspect bowlers go before a bowling review group to establish whether an action up to that point is OK or not OK. You could go out the next day and be called again.'

Which is little consolation to a bowler who now has to operate under a cloud of suspicion until November when the results of the latest investigation into his action will be known. It makes his performances even more remarkable.

To understand Murali, it helps to abandon assumptions you might have about him. For a start, he betrays a surprising diffidence for someone so talented.

Just after he had come within a dropped catch of beating the record for the best innings haul in Tests, with nine for 51 against Zimbabwe in January 2002, I spoke to him for this newspaper and was astonished to hear how relieved he was not to have bettered Jim Laker's 10 for 53. 'They make you a target then,' he said, 'and I don't want that kind of pressure.'

As his ex-skipper Ranatunga says of Murali, 'He was young for a very long time.'

It was a different Muralitharan I spoke to last week, one who has matured into a gutsy fighter, a highly skilled adversary worthy of respect. 'Even if it's just for one day,' he says, 'Shane Warne wants to be the highest wicket-taker in the world. But he knows that I will always take the record back.'

There is a view in the game that he is not as mentally strong as Warne, who recently advised him to 'grow up' when he withdrew from the tour of Australia.

But Murali had reasons other than self-interest, as he explains. 'I didn't want the tour to be a media circus with me and Shane going head to head for the record, and if I can't bowl the doosra I don't expect Hayden, Ponting and Gilchrist to play with a thinner bat.'

The doosra - Urdu for 'the second one' - is, effectively, his wrong'un, the one that goes the other way, and it is at the nub of his troubles. He has been advised not to bowl it because the ICC consider it the most suspect. It is a view that puzzles Murali. 'My first reaction was, "Are they mad?" Then, "Why? What for? Why now? Because I'm close to the world record?" I was very very angry because I know these people who watch from television and far away don't know what they are seeing. Believe me, I know what a throw is. You can't throw and make the ball dip. I don't throw.'

After he had taken his 520th wicket, the Sri Lanka board told him to put away his mystery ball. John Howard, the cricket-loving Prime Minister of Australia, called him a chucker. Tensions grew on the eve of the tour. Murali's initial inclination was to defy them all. 'If I say no to the doosra now, does that mean it was something I should not have bowled for the past three years? It's not my main wicket-taking delivery anyway. I just bowl it once in a while to keep the batsman guessing.'

When Murali was first called by the Australians Emerson and Hair on the 1995-96 tour, he immediately subjected himself to rigorous biomechanical tests in laboratory conditions in Hong Kong and Perth to establish that there was no undue elbow straightening. He underwent further tests after Emerson called him there in 1999, then again this year before capturing Courtney Walsh's all-time Test wickets record against Zimbabwe, with 14 wickets in the two-match series.

The 'numbers' from the latest tests - using the most sophisticated motion-capture sensors available - went to the ICC and Sri Lankan authorities in April. The results will be released in November, so he will face South Africa in Sri Lanka next month without the doosra being available to him.

There is a wider dimension to the issue, and that is the integrity of all bowlers and, in a way, that of the game itself. Murali does not want special treatment, or the Laws adjusted to accommodate him. He wants justice. 'I will bowl within the law. I will do whatever the law allows. To change things just for me isn't fair on the other bowlers. But I still don't know what they want. You either call me, or you don't. But if you call me, you have to call a whole lot of others. I want to settle the issue.'

The Law had remained essentially unchanged since Victorian times until, in 2000, it was adjusted - largely because of the fuss over Murali's action. Law 24.2 reads: 'For a delivery to be fair in respect of the arm the ball must not be thrown' - that is, the arm must be as straight as humanly possible. Law 24.3 adds: 'Definition of fair delivery.... the elbow joint is not straightened partially or completely from that point until the ball has left the hand. This definition shall not debar a bowler from flexing or rotating the wrist in the delivery swing.'

Previously, there had been no mention of flexing. Two years ago, the ICC decided there should be degrees of tolerance in flexion: 10 degrees for fast bowlers, 7.5 degrees for medium pacers, and five degrees for slow bowlers. This made the false assumption that all bowlers have the same arm-speed.

Also, it did not allow for the difference in flexions when a fast bowler delivers a slower ball, a slow bowler a quicker ball, or the many nuances in between. All of these are virtually impossible for the umpire and match referee to measure during play. And sending suspect bowlers to be tested by biomechanics in laboratory conditions cannot recreate the stresses of a game, when a bowler tries to do that little bit extra to get a batsman out.

Complicating the matter further, what makes Murali different from every other bowler in cricket is his body. If you are born with arms that are bent, you are going to be unorthodox from the first ball you bowl. To get some idea of how unusual Muralitharan's elbows are in relation to his body, try this: stand up, push your elbows into your ribs, and turn your palms forward; your shoulders are distending a little, too.

Murali's elbow quirk has been assessed to be 32 degrees away from the norm for the right arm and 28 degrees for the left. His three brothers are similarly built, but none of them remotely approaches Murali in ability, confirming that his genius lies elsewhere.

He knew from an early age he had a special gift. 'It was just the way I did it naturally. I found I could turn it more than anyone else if I really used more than my fingers. I can turn a snooker ball on glass, too. I've tried it.'

Murali was still at school when he made his first-class debut and he was fast-tracked into the Test team when Australia toured in 1992. His first ball was to Allan Border. Murali's eyes sparkle as he recalls the experience.

'I beat his outside edge, once, twice, three times, whoosh, whoosh, whoosh! He turns round to Kaluwitharana [the wicket-keeper] and asks him what I'm bowling. Kalu says off-spin. Border hits the next one, but he's not confident. He asks Dean Jones the non-striker, what I'm doing, and he says leg-breaks.'

Murali has spread similar confusion ever since. The reason he is hard to read is he bowls off-spinners (as well as top-spinners and his doosra) with a wrist-spinner's action. He ran me through his repertoire.

'Ball in first two fingers, thumb to the side, the ball pushed out, that's the slider, the one that scoots low on landing. Same grip, only thumb on top and fingers running over the ball on release, that's the toppie. And the doosra - I really turn the wrist one more than normal.'

His action first caused a stir when England toured Sri Lanka in 1993. Dermot Reeve, who was in the squad but not the Test side, filmed Murali with a camcorder and that amateur videotape landed on the ICC's desks at Lord's shortly after.

Two years later, at a tournament in Sharjah, Darrell Hair was standing in a one-day tournament and aware that he would be officiating on Sri Lanka's tour of Australia that southern summer. He raised the issue of Murali's action with the ICC match referee, Raman Subba Row, who asked the television production company to show him replays.

At the end of the tournament Subba Row asked for tapes to be sent to Lord's for further inspection. How do I know this? Because I recorded, edited and delivered the tapes.

Murali might have shied away from his demons by pulling out of Sri Lanka's Australia tour, but he is far from finished.

'I will play for as long as I can,' he says, 'and bowl whatever they let me. I'll still take wickets.'

You've read the piece, now have your say. Email your comments, be as frank as you like, we can take it, to sport.editor@guardianunlimited.co.uk, or mail the Observer direct at sport@observer.co.uk

Is the article from an indepentdent source do you suppose? I think not it this case....
 

Son Of Coco

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Tom Halsey said:
Simon Hughes did a bit after that, and said that there was considerably more straightening in both balls without the brace.

Re: Warne v Murali: Sorry, but Murali has it a hell of a lot easier with it spinning from ball 1. Warne has a much better average outside the sub-continent. Plus Hughes has just proved that there is considerable straightening without the brace - I have a feeling it is more than 10 degrees, too.
The difference between Warne and Murali in SL is around .08 - so it's not heavily weighed in Murali's favour there.
 

Son Of Coco

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Dark Hunter said:
You know what's even better, if murali was an aussie you wouldn't hear a f***ing thing. It's the we aussies are, I think it was former aussie test player barry jarman that said: "If any cricket lover says Murali doesn't chuck then they don't know a thing about cricket"
All the **** murali has had poured on him, he deserves to get the world record.
that's my opinion anyway

Darky
You're right Darky, like we heard nothing about Brett Lee perhaps? It's not that you wouldn't hear anything, something is usually done about it, that's the difference......(and I realise Murali is doing something now..)
 

Son Of Coco

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Waughney said:
Which experts have said is based on no evidence what so ever.
Surely the biomechanics experts have no say as to how their findings are applied to the game fo cricket? Unless, of course, they are experts in both areas.
 

Son Of Coco

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
dude said:
plenty of people still dismiss murali as a chucker when evidence is conclusive. when i say the evidence is conclusive, the channel4 documentary proves that murali does not chuck. it's only a matter of time the ICC will clear his Doosra and you will still find many iggnorant people find another arguement against him, the question here is not if murali straightens his arm but when will you iggnorant people stop for awhile and think!? forget what team he plays for but think for a moment what he has done to the game of cricket!? this man has been cleared and has done wonders to the game of cricket, when in your wildest dreams would you have ever thought of seeing a bowler bowl a leg spinner with an off spiners action???
Well, let's not get carried away here Dude...................it has been done before. Of course the old "everyone who questions Murali is ignorant, and his supporters aren't" argument is guaranteed to be a winner!
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Well welcome to the forums SOC, you'll soon learn that this is a debate done to death (you can probably guess that) and most stuff has probably been said 100 times before.
8 posts in 1 thread in a row - impressive start.
 

Son Of Coco

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
dude said:
and why not i ask you?? the term "deformity at birth" is usually considered a handicap but in this man's case he's turned a handicap into something special, people look at blokes like lance armstrong and other sportsmen and women who go through that extra special barrier in life to acomplish the un acomplishable and cheer them on. but in this man's case a few people sit and read and listen to biased stories and make their own minds up, i ask you to do two things. one is look at the chucking law my friend. it was designed to prevent harm to the batsmen in a case a fast bowler ran down the pitch and threw the ball at top speed. secondly, i ask anyone....anyone to try chuk or throw the ball and attempt to spin the ball and land it on length and take 500+ wickets! i doubt anyone can chuck and still spin it as half as much as murali can.
the fact is, that a few if not all who doubt and brand him as a chukcer are biased and have no love for the game of cricket. this is the truth.
The chucking law is actually designed to prevent people from delivering the ball illegally, it's not just to stop fast bowlers. As for the trying to chuck a ball and spin it, I spin it a great deal more chucking it than bowling it normally - if I practiced I could have been truly great! haha The "I'm right because I support Murali, and you're wrong because you don't" argument is baseless and lacks a spine to support it.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Son Of Coco said:
The difference between Warne and Murali in SL is around .08 - so it's not heavily weighed in Murali's favour there.
I think Halsey's point is that Murali gets to bowl there a lot more.
 

Son Of Coco

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Richard said:
Well welcome to the forums SOC, you'll soon learn that this is a debate done to death (you can probably guess that) and most stuff has probably been said 100 times before.
8 posts in 1 thread in a row - impressive start.

haha, Thanks Richard. I kind of guessed that there would have been a fair bit of debate about Murali here too (the 15 pages on this thread kind of gave it away). As for the 8 posts in a row............well, what can I say, I was helped by being in a different time zone I think, was trying to play catch up, but did have to sit out an impressive opening spell on a seaming wicket before being allowed to play some shots.
 

Son Of Coco

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
marc71178 said:
I think Halsey's point is that Murali gets to bowl there a lot more.
I understood the point. It had been stated somewhere that Murali's average was a lot better on the subcontinent, the point I was trying to make was that wasn't true for Sri Lanka................but is for India.....
 

dude

School Boy/Girl Captain
marc71178 said:
Written by a bloke whose writing makes nookie appear to be a well balanced unbiased individual..
marc mate charlie austin is the author of that article he's a reputed journalist.

"He works on a freelance basis for various other Wisden publications, The Sunday Telegraph, The Guardian and Reuters. He also helped set up a specialist Sri Lanka-focused UK travel company called Red Dot Tours, of which he remains a director."
- Charlie Austin.
 

dude

School Boy/Girl Captain
pontingrulz said:
all right guys ill settle this ******** once and for all. The Icc has proved murali is a chucker and that his doosra is illegal. Im sick of this crap with everyone trying to defend murali saying that oh no murali's not a cheat. well you guys might as well go out on the feild pull down muralis pants and suck his ****. Especially dude. Mate for ****s sake murali is a chucker and leave it at that. he has proved to be a chucker and the icc decisions are final
see mate thats why you should be following your own words and be sucking your own C**k. the ICC has prooved succesfully that the when the doosra is bowled it goes beyond their SET tolerance levels( these levels were set according bruce elliot without much research) it is inevitable that after september the icc will increase its tolerence levels and you'll be bending over and pleasing yourself! have fun!
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
dude said:
marc mate charlie austin is the author of that article he's a reputed journalist.

Yes, and I have read many of his articles on Cricinfo - hence I said what I said about him - impartial he isn't.
 

voice fc

Cricket Spectator
Son Of Coco said:
Well, let's not get carried away here Dude...................it has been done before. Of course the old "everyone who questions Murali is ignorant, and his supporters aren't" argument is guaranteed to be a winner!
......................................................................................................
Hi. Otherway round is also true. "Every one who supports Murali is ignorant(about chucking Laws) and should see an eye specialist while Murali bashers are better then umpires and match refrees and has no optical illusions about Murali!!!! :p
 
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marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Relevance?

No matter how many articles written by pro-Murali journalists - that won't change a thing.
 

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