vic_orthdox
Global Moderator
If Root is to captain, just leave him at four, for Gods sake.
-
Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.
You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!
If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
Moving forward what type of side should England pick in ODI cricket?
- Thread starter Niall
- Start date
GIMH
Norwood's on Fire
Yeah this, given our problems in ODIs I don't think you can put it down to the domestic game's structure.
flibbertyjibber
Request Your Custom Title Now!
The same story after every injury. Takes an age to get going again. Will be fine by summer with a tour to West Indies and overs under his belt, might not fire till 3rd test out there but will be ok for NZ and Aussies in summer as long as he doesn't break down again.
Prince EWS
Global Moderator
I do think that long term it could produce more of a block/bash culture than the perpetual singles needed to build a substantial OD innings. I don't think it's really to blame for anything so far though.
Scaly piscine
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Only England try to 'play' people like Broad, Morgan, Cook, KP, Finn etc. back into form whilst being nigh on useless in the meantime and with some of them it's clear they've become fundamentally flawed and need to just go away indefinitely and make themselves selectable again.
Everyone knows how Broad works. Everyone can see Cook's been shot for a while. Finn's been broken, reworked and then they've tried to patch him together with sticky tape into his old self. KP's finished, unless he gets pissed off at someone or something to 'prove them wrong' then he might have another 18 months of being a inconsistent genius. Morgan's been atrocious and doesn't merit selection, seems to have broken himself by trying to become a Test player when it was never realistic and now he's not one thing or the other.
England need to get people in with the conviction to pick people on merit and performances, which will strengthen the system below instead of the constant undermining by recent coaches creating prima donnas and egos with players who are virtually undroppable. The players don't strive to be good or great, they just aim and settle for mediocrity.
Everyone knows how Broad works. Everyone can see Cook's been shot for a while. Finn's been broken, reworked and then they've tried to patch him together with sticky tape into his old self. KP's finished, unless he gets pissed off at someone or something to 'prove them wrong' then he might have another 18 months of being a inconsistent genius. Morgan's been atrocious and doesn't merit selection, seems to have broken himself by trying to become a Test player when it was never realistic and now he's not one thing or the other.
England need to get people in with the conviction to pick people on merit and performances, which will strengthen the system below instead of the constant undermining by recent coaches creating prima donnas and egos with players who are virtually undroppable. The players don't strive to be good or great, they just aim and settle for mediocrity.
Hurricane
Hall of Fame Member
I have borrowed GF's post and edited with my thoughts. Caveat much of this assessment is based on the recent tri series and the world cup so If someone has been stinking for a couple of years and annoying the fans then I haven't taken that into account,
Moeen Ali – [BDrop[/B]. His defence is suspect and he just really isn't particularly good tbh. There is a reason why he scores 20(19) and then gets out.
Ian Bell – Keep. I regard him as the second best batsman in the team next to Root. Ian Bell is a big wicket when you play England. Moeen Ali just gifts his wicket away. Who cares if he gets out when set and is the Shane Watson of England - he gets more runs than anyone else and if he played in a more stable team he could chance his arm more. Right now he knows he can't be all that positive because the rest of the batting line up is inconsistent (which is a nice euphemism for ****e). Once he becomes more positive he will become a bigger asset.
Gary Ballance – Bin. Poor technique. Yet he looks so good in tests. Perhaps there is something to what Scott Styris said that tests are more back foot oriented and ODIs more front foot oriented.
Joe Root – Keep. Agree with GF and everyone else. Burgey has a point that he could go to number 3.
Eoin Morgan – Keep but drop to number 6. He gets a nose bleed when he bats at five and doesn't know how to pace or construct a more measured inning.
James Taylor – Keep.
Jos Buttler – Keep at number 7. Even when he makes runs in tests, it all seems like he could go out on any delivery. Don't put him up the order. His defensive technique is not as strong as Maxwell's (which is saying something) so probably couldn't rescue England like Maxwell has occassionally for Aus.
Chris Woakes – Drop. His bowling is very good, but it would be helpful if his batting was more consistent (not using that word as a euphemism this time). I really think England need to bat down to number 8 and that batting ability should come into it for the 4th seamer.
Have no comment about the bowlers they have been neither good nor bad.
My only other comment is on Stokes. He is neither as good as his debut performances in the Ashes or as bad as his wretched run of ducks. His Ashes performance wasn't a "fluke" but he happened to be in the right place at the right time. He avoided the initial tests and the mental scarring that went with them, and came in fresh and positive and just happened to come off. I don't see him outperforming Woakes in either discipline.
Moeen Ali – [BDrop[/B]. His defence is suspect and he just really isn't particularly good tbh. There is a reason why he scores 20(19) and then gets out.
Ian Bell – Keep. I regard him as the second best batsman in the team next to Root. Ian Bell is a big wicket when you play England. Moeen Ali just gifts his wicket away. Who cares if he gets out when set and is the Shane Watson of England - he gets more runs than anyone else and if he played in a more stable team he could chance his arm more. Right now he knows he can't be all that positive because the rest of the batting line up is inconsistent (which is a nice euphemism for ****e). Once he becomes more positive he will become a bigger asset.
Gary Ballance – Bin. Poor technique. Yet he looks so good in tests. Perhaps there is something to what Scott Styris said that tests are more back foot oriented and ODIs more front foot oriented.
Joe Root – Keep. Agree with GF and everyone else. Burgey has a point that he could go to number 3.
Eoin Morgan – Keep but drop to number 6. He gets a nose bleed when he bats at five and doesn't know how to pace or construct a more measured inning.
James Taylor – Keep.
Jos Buttler – Keep at number 7. Even when he makes runs in tests, it all seems like he could go out on any delivery. Don't put him up the order. His defensive technique is not as strong as Maxwell's (which is saying something) so probably couldn't rescue England like Maxwell has occassionally for Aus.
Chris Woakes – Drop. His bowling is very good, but it would be helpful if his batting was more consistent (not using that word as a euphemism this time). I really think England need to bat down to number 8 and that batting ability should come into it for the 4th seamer.
Have no comment about the bowlers they have been neither good nor bad.
My only other comment is on Stokes. He is neither as good as his debut performances in the Ashes or as bad as his wretched run of ducks. His Ashes performance wasn't a "fluke" but he happened to be in the right place at the right time. He avoided the initial tests and the mental scarring that went with them, and came in fresh and positive and just happened to come off. I don't see him outperforming Woakes in either discipline.
Last edited:
morgieb
Request Your Custom Title Now!
Crap domestic record.
Hurricane
Hall of Fame Member
Sure I could compromise on him going down to number 6 due to his bowling abilities. He has two centuries in 22 innings and one was against Scotland. Against test playing nations his ODI average is 28.7.
vic_orthdox
Global Moderator
Ridiculous to suggest that Ali gets dropped.
I'm not particularly convinced about his batting, but both facets are a trade-up on Samit Patel.
I'm not particularly convinced about his batting, but both facets are a trade-up on Samit Patel.
Hurricane
Hall of Fame Member
Well his batting is suspect and right now he is being picked as an opening bat. And he doesn't look the part. People in this thread seem to like the fact that the bats with an SR of 100. But if he is inconsistent (and yes as a euphemism again) then he doesn't warrant a place as a top order batsman especially if England are looking to make meaningful changes.
vic_orthdox
Global Moderator
Yes, but he doesn't get dropped.
His strike rate could be 10, and he doesn't get dropped.
His strike rate could be 10, and he doesn't get dropped.
Prince EWS
Global Moderator
Yeah, moving Moeen down to 6, 7 or hell even 8 might make some sense, particularly if the newer guys England want to get involved are mainly top three players, but he should definitely be in the side no matter what.
Hurricane
Hall of Fame Member
I am happy for him to bat somewhere from 6-8 for England but his major value proposition seems to be as a top order bat and he doesn't seem to have nailed down a winning formula or mindset to take into an inning - which is compounded with some execution problems with some of his shots.
If he needs to be a top order batsman then he is not part of a winning future. If he can be slotted in down the order then all well and good.
Spikey
Request Your Custom Title Now!
Moeen down at 6/7 is actually kinda cool cause it gives England the chance to trial both some top 3 guys and probably an extra seamer (assuming 8,9,10 & 11 remain seamers).
Prince EWS
Global Moderator
Yeah that's true. I think one of the main players they'll want to get in there is Stokes though, and in some sort of top seven role rather than as a bowler. So that'd mean a 5-7 of Buttler, Moeen and Stokes, with probably Morgan at 4 and Root at 3 with no Taylor.. just seems a bit devoid of top order cake to me. I think I'd probably stick with Moeen opening and pair him with someone new, and Morgan-Buttler-Stokes in the 5-7 spots.
Or just drop Morgan.
theegyptian
International Vice-Captain
How much time to people want to give Bell? He's played three world cups and 160 ODIs. He's awful under any kind of pressure. For all the positive play of the tri series when he got to the world cup he went back into his shell and played defensively. Haq bowling 40mph at him with mid off up - Bell easily good enough to hit him over mid off but instead just knocked the ball into the legside (9 off 19 balls). I can't believe there was anyone who thought that he was going to score 130* yesterday and get England over the line. There was an inevitably as the runrate was increasing that Bell's dismissal was imminent. The last couple of months have been a microcosm of his career. Some glimpses of progress then regresses back under pressure into mediocrity.
A career record of 666 runs in 20 matches @ 33.3 avg @ 70.9 sr with no hundreds in world cups (+ very similar champions trophy record) is as clear a proof as you need that he's terrible under pressure. If he hasn't cracked it by now he never will. He's England's most senior player and England needed more from him. Root has as many hundreds as Bell in ODI cricket.
The one area where England have some decent potential options in ODI cricket is top order bats. Vince, Roy, Hales and Lees in a year or two. Vince and Roy both did well on the lions tour of sa and both have done decently in domestic od cricket for a while. You've gotta give these guys a chance. Roy for my money in the last year has really improved quite a bit. They could easily fail but I'd rather run the risk of them failing than continue with Bell who you know is average.
A career record of 666 runs in 20 matches @ 33.3 avg @ 70.9 sr with no hundreds in world cups (+ very similar champions trophy record) is as clear a proof as you need that he's terrible under pressure. If he hasn't cracked it by now he never will. He's England's most senior player and England needed more from him. Root has as many hundreds as Bell in ODI cricket.
The one area where England have some decent potential options in ODI cricket is top order bats. Vince, Roy, Hales and Lees in a year or two. Vince and Roy both did well on the lions tour of sa and both have done decently in domestic od cricket for a while. You've gotta give these guys a chance. Roy for my money in the last year has really improved quite a bit. They could easily fail but I'd rather run the risk of them failing than continue with Bell who you know is average.
sledger
Spanish_Vicente
It was hardly crap compared to the majority of his peers tbh.