Most underrated and overrated players in the world?

[social]

No matter what, it has to move. Most bats will be relatively face-on.
Any ball pitched anywhere cannot trouble a good batsman if it just bounces a little more than might be expected.

Extra bounce is as difficult to play as movement for "good players."

 

[social]

He's been played plenty of times.
Whether he's had the better of certain individuals or not.

Craig White.
See - all depends on what you call performance. I, personally, call performance bowling good deliveries, not simply ending-up with good figures.

Your sentiments have anything to do with the fact that White plays for Yorkshire?

 

[vic_orthdox]

a lot of these "poor shots" come about from playing ambitious shots, e.g. driving when the ball isn't there, because of his robotic bowling, and the lack of opportunity to score. it's these sort of strokes where if they come off, everyone exclaims how good a shot it was, but if they screw it up, then everyone has a go at them for playing a terrible shot.

 

[Richard]

oh shut up, it happens far more often than the old inswinger out swinger rubbish. thats how mcgrath gets many of his wickets, by getting players in 2 minds about going on the back foot or the front foot.

Mostly because there are very few bowlers who can bowl inswingers and outswingers to order.
If McGrath gets so many of his wickets like that I wonder why I've seen so few.

 

[Richard]

Extra bounce is as difficult to play as movement for "good players."

Absolute rubbish - extra bounce simply causes the splice to be hit (totally harmless) or even the glove in extreme circumstances (not often too dangerous) and sideways movement causes the edge to be taken.

 

[Richard]

Your sentiments have anything to do with the fact that White plays for Yorkshire?

Nope, I could have said Wasim Akram too.
Or Chaminda Vaas.

 

[Richard]

a lot of these "poor shots" come about from playing ambitious shots, e.g. driving when the ball isn't there, because of his robotic bowling, and the lack of opportunity to score. it's these sort of strokes where if they come off, everyone exclaims how good a shot it was, but if they screw it up, then everyone has a go at them for playing a terrible shot.

Yep - because there's a fine line.
Mostly it's best not to go for them.

 

[vic_orthdox]

also, on the point before about extra bounce, that is true when playing a ball that travels from stump to stump. but when the ball is outside the off stump, where a batsman must reach for it, the bat will end up on an angle, and this extra bounce will allow the ball to hit closer to the edge of the bat, in an area that often results in the ball heading towards the gully region - where mcgrath does tend to take a lot of wickets.

 

[social]

No, batsmen do it to all sorts of bowlers all the time.
I can't believe you haven't noticed them.

The majority of batsmen that utilise this technique are English or play in the county system.

It is a flaw that serves no purpose other than providing encouragement for the bowler.

At its' worst, it can cause the batman to be drawn into playing at deliveries that more positive "leavers" , e.g. Ponting, never would.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Mostly because there are very few bowlers who can bowl inswingers and outswingers to order.
If McGrath gets so many of his wickets like that I wonder why I've seen so few.

awww, now you have me thinking of damien fleming. how sad, the death of the swing bowlers.

 

[social]

So in other words, the strokes in question were not bad at all, and were in fact shots that ANY batsman would have played, even the best batsmen in the world, and were instead caused by good, consistent, accurate bowling and subtle movement in the air and off the wicket, as well as variation in length and pace. The fact is, if a bowler relies on poor strokes to get their wickets, good batsmen will cut them to shreds by avoiding playing said poor strokes. McGrath has been the most successful seamer in the world since 2000 not by playing against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe, but by dominating every single batting lineup he has faced, including the likes of Lara, Tendulkar, Dravid, Kallis and so on. These are not players who flail at average bowling and give their wickets away.



Like what? Get thrashed all over the park? This is honestly equivalent to claiming that Andrew Symonds is a more lethal bowler on a Kandy dustbowl than Murali. It's not just wrong, it's completely insane.



Hell, forget New Zealand at Adelaide, I could give you a dozen other games to look at. As I said earlier, the Adelaide performance was practically a McGrath trademark, taking wickets on surfaces where other bowlers cannot is what he does better than anyone else in the world. That's what is so utterly bizarre about your argument - if you were claiming McGrath was an overrated bowler on dangerous, seaming, uneven decks you may well have an argument as there are plenty of bowlers I would rather have bowling for me on those sorts of wickets. But, just like Curtley Ambrose was perhaps second to none in the 90s on a Perth or Bridgetown minefield, McGrath is in a class of his own on a flat, lifeless deck.

Richard,

remove the poster of the Queen from above your bed and replace with the above.

 

[social]

Really?
What a ludicrous comment.
If the pitch offered movement off the seam, Ambrose extracted it.
If it didn't, he used cutters.
To compare McGrath to Ambrose is a massive insult to the West Indian.

.

Is that so.

Mike Atherton (remember him) rates McGrath and Ambrose as similar bowlers and impossible to separate as the best he has faced.

Iy you were a baseballer, you'd be batting .0000

 

[Richard]

also, on the point before about extra bounce, that is true when playing a ball that travels from stump to stump. but when the ball is outside the off stump, where a batsman must reach for it, the bat will end up on an angle, and this extra bounce will allow the ball to hit closer to the edge of the bat, in an area that often results in the ball heading towards the gully region - where mcgrath does tend to take a lot of wickets.

Because batsmen play defensive strokes at deliveries outside off so often, don't they?

 

[Richard]

The majority of batsmen that utilise this technique are English or play in the county system.

It is a flaw that serves no purpose other than providing encouragement for the bowler.

At its' worst, it can cause the batman to be drawn into playing at deliveries that more positive "leavers" , e.g. Ponting, never would.

Batsmen from all over The World play the stroke. It succeeds lots. Yes, very, very good bowlers can occasionally turn it into a weakness, but mostly it just infuriates them.

 

[Richard]

awww, now you have me thinking of damien fleming. how sad, the death of the swing bowlers.

Yeah, the decline, at least.
If swing dies completely, that's the end of bowling - especially in the current era of pitches.

 

[Richard]

Richard,

remove the poster of the Queen from above your bed and replace with the above.

I might if I had any posters.

 

[Richard]

Is that so.

Mike Atherton (remember him) rates McGrath and Ambrose as similar bowlers and impossible to separate as the best he has faced.

Mainly because he mostly faced them on seaming pitches, when it would have been nearly impossible to seperate them if you couldn't see any skin.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Because batsmen play defensive strokes at deliveries outside off so often, don't they?

ah, but that's how mcgrath was managing so many wickets, bowling only slightly outside off-stump. the proof of which is how new zealand combatted him in 2000/01 (or whenever they had the drawn series) and left him all the time, and he had a poor series. because he is so adept at bringing the ball back in off the seam (with the new ball), batsman are forced to play at wider lines from him than other bowlers, and therefore do end up playing both attacking AND defensive shots outside of off stump.

 

[Richard]

If you look closer, you'll see that McGrath was actually combatted well for most of 2001\02 (by both NZ and SA).
He only had 1 really good Test-match - the match I enjoyed least out of all the God-knows-how-many I've watched.
The Wanderers - everything I hate in a Test-match.

 

[vic_orthdox]

yes, because after the success of the black cap's tactics, south africa used a similar way of playing him. since then, however, mcgrath has adjusted his line and length to those opponents who wish to leave him at every opportunity.