Most underrated and overrated players in the world?

[Richard]

you really are getting desperate arent you. a million people have seen mcgrath bowl wicket taking deliveries on wickets where everyone else has looked innocuous. you my friend are blind.

No, I'm not, I wouldn't be able to type if I was blind. Nor would I be able to do all sorts of things that even you can tell I can do.
Maybe a million people have seen McGrath bowl wicket-taking deliveries on wickets where others have looked innocuous - probably because they don't really understand what a wicket-taking delivery is - plenty would just say "it's a ball that's got a wicket against it's name".

 

[Son Of Coco]

So why does it happen so rarely then?
Yes, every wicket offers a tiny bit of movement, but not enough to make a bowler dangerous just by landing the ball on the seam.

Small.amounts.of.movement.are.dangerous.....

 

[Richard]

Exactly. I've watched every test McGrath has bowled in since the 2001 Ashes (or close to it at least), and I've yet to see a pitch he hasn't been able to extract movement from. The Adelaide test against New Zealand this summer is a perfect example - one of the flattest decks I've ever seen in a test, and his performance was masterful. The way he dismissed Astle will stick in my mind for a long time.

Yep, I saw that one too and I've never seen him do what he did there.
I've seen most of them, too (and I make no apologies for saying the Bangladesh games don't matter in the slightest) and he's never moved the ball off the seam to take a wicket except where everyone can move it off the seam.

 

[Richard]

Small.amounts.of.movement.are.dangerous.....

No, they're not - any batsman can adjust (especially when the ball is short) if the ball moves a mere 2 inches.

 

[Richard]

To 2005? So he's been poor since coming back from injury? A lot of countries would trade in their top two picks for a bowler as poor as McGrath I'd wager.

To be that poor and still have the average he has is also phenomenal - but then I have to stop myself as I've just realised that he's poor by your standards which are a little off kilter.

My standards aren't based on averages.

 

[Richard]

McGrath ODIs
Wickets:
311

Runs Conceded:
6816

Best:
7/15

Average:
21.92

Legend
Bowled 76 (24.4%)
Caught 119 (38.3%)
Caught Behind 75 (24.1%)
LBW 40 (12.9%)
Stumped 1 (0.3%)
Hit Wicket 0 (0.0%)

McGrath Tests
Wickets:
481

Runs Conceded:
10309

Best:
8/24

Average:
21.43

Legend
Bowled 59 (12.3%)
Caught 196 (40.7%)
Caught Behind 132 (27.4%)
LBW 93 (19.3%)
Stumped 0 (0.0%)
Hit Wicket 1 (0.2%)

What do ODIs matter?

 

[Richard]

I've heard virtually every commentator here in Oz mention pressure being built at some stage, and given that they've all played cricket before I presume that they know what was going on and are speaking from personal experience in a similar situation.

And I've heard lots of them talk about feeling pressure, too - not very often just because of a slow rate, though.

 

[Son Of Coco]

No, I'm not, I wouldn't be able to type if I was blind. Nor would I be able to do all sorts of things that even you can tell I can do.
Maybe a million people have seen McGrath bowl wicket-taking deliveries on wickets where others have looked innocuous - probably because they don't really understand what a wicket-taking delivery is - plenty would just say "it's a ball that's got a wicket against it's name".

If a bowler (for instance) bowls short of a length pushing the batsman onto the backfoot, and then pitches one up two feet outside off and the batsman goes at it and gets caught that's a wicket taking delivery no matter how it looks to you on TV. You look at balls as random events, when they're actually a number of things that go together to make up a plan the bowler is trying to execute.

 

[Richard]

So, in other words, every batsman in the world (which basically covers those who he has succeeded against since 2001) is poor, and can't handle a bowler who doesn't bowl good deliveries and can't move the ball off the seam?

No, there are quite a few Test-matches where he's been handled very well.

And, every other bowler in the world (which basically covers those who have an inferior record in the period you named) is better than McGrath, just not as lucky?

No, there are loads of bowlers who can't bowl well on flat wickets.

 

[Son Of Coco]

And I've heard lots of them talk about feeling pressure, too - not very often just because of a slow rate, though.

It kind of goes together though doesn't it? If you're not scoring quickly then there's a fair chance the bowlers are making life hard - thus putting the batsman under pressure.

 

[Richard]

If a bowler (for instance) bowls short of a length pushing the batsman onto the backfoot, and then pitches one up two feet outside off and the batsman goes at it and gets caught that's a wicket taking delivery no matter how it looks to you on TV. You look at balls as random events, when they're actually a number of things that go together to make up a plan the bowler is trying to execute.

If a batsman fails to get forward just because a few previous deliveries have been shortish (and gets out as a result) it's terrible, terrible batting.
And not surprisingly, it doesn't actually happen very often.

 

[Richard]

It kind of goes together though doesn't it? If you're not scoring quickly then there's a fair chance the bowlers are making life hard - thus putting the batsman under pressure.

If the batsman is feeling under pressure there are all sorts of reasons.
If the scoring-rate is one of them, you'd expect it to be mentioned.
Funnily, most people only ever talk about pressure due to slow scoring in limited-over games.

 

[Son Of Coco]

No, they're not - any batsman can adjust (especially when the ball is short) if the ball moves a mere 2 inches.

I think you'll find they can't...if it's short they're more likely to just leave it as it's not forcing a shot. If it's on a good length however then a samll amount of movement is dangerous. 2 inches is plenty to trouble a batsman.

 

[Richard]

And as I said before......any amount is enough to be dangerous especially on a wicket that is doing very little in general. On a wicket that is seaming there'll be a lot of balls that move too much to be any threat, on a wicket that offers less to the bowlers the one that moves becomes very dangerous indeed.

You don't have to move the ball a long way for it to be dangerous, about half a bat will do it (if that).

Half a bat?????? Have you watched much recently?
Half a bat won't even take the edge uncontrollably if there's no adjustment - given the adjustment that almost always happens, it probably won't even take the edge at all.

 

[Richard]

I think you'll find they can't...if it's short they're more likely to just leave it as it's not forcing a shot. If it's on a good length however then a samll amount of movement is dangerous. 2 inches is plenty to trouble a batsman.

Watch some deliveries - you really, really will be surprised.

 

[Son Of Coco]

If a batsman fails to get forward just because a few previous deliveries have been shortish (and gets out as a result) it's terrible, terrible batting.
And not surprisingly, it doesn't actually happen very often.

Yes it does, in all forms of the game. Gillespie uses it very well as a tactic, and if you watch him bowl you'll often see the ball pitched up wide of off after quite a few deliveries of good line and length.

 

[Richard]

You can say that yes, but it doesn't make it true. You've offered us no evidence that it has any semblance of 'fact' about it.

Well I might try, sometime. It'd take quite a while, though - that's 155 wickets I've got to summarise.

 

[Swervy]

If a batsman fails to get forward just because a few previous deliveries have been shortish (and gets out as a result) it's terrible, terrible batting.
And not surprisingly, it doesn't actually happen very often.

Rubbish

 

[Richard]

Yes it does, in all forms of the game. Gillespie uses it very well as a tactic, and if you watch him bowl you'll often see the ball pitched up wide of off after quite a few deliveries of good line and length.

I've watched him bowl lots, and sometimes he gets the wickets because the ball has swung a little (or a lot) in the circumstances you describe.
Often, too, you'll see the same circumstances and the ball either left or driven successfully.

 

[Son Of Coco]

Watch some deliveries - you really, really will be surprised.

I know how good the batsman are Richard, I've bowled to some of them and they make me look very slow and straight up and down, but the bowlers they play against are also top class - and moving it a foot will often not bring you any result at all as it's too much movement.