Mohammed Amir cleared to return with immediate effect

[Black_Warrior]

Anyway, my problem with him in this particular case isn't so much what he did 5 years ago. From his statements and interviews, he appears to be remorseful and asks people to give him a another chance. I have no absolutely no problem with that..you can't punish a guy twice for the same crime..my problem is, if he asks to be treated with respect, he has to start showing other people the same respect. Yes he doesn't deserve to be called 'thief' by people wherever he goes, but neither does he have the right to behave that way with Faisal or anyone else. Respect is a two way street.

 

[the big bambino]

Yeah it's so easy to make this argument because of Faisal Iqbal and Amir's records.. Faisal is crap..so he gets all the hate..Amir is brilliant, so we look the other way.

My point is, Faisal (unless evidence proven otherwise) did everything in his limited ability to help the team's cause...can't say the same for the other guy. That's all.

^ This ...

Anyway, my problem with him in this particular case isn't so much what he did 5 years ago. From his statements and interviews, he appears to be remorseful and asks people to give him a another chance. I have no absolutely no problem with that..you can't punish a guy twice for the same crime..my problem is, if he asks to be treated with respect, he has to start showing other people the same respect. Yes he doesn't deserve to be called 'thief' by people wherever he goes, but neither does he have the right to behave that way with Faisal or anyone else. Respect is a two way street.

^ ... and that. Well said.

 

[cnerd123]

Too many cop outs in this thread.

You cannot equate Spot Fixing to Match Fixing, and to try and draw a slippery slope argument that "oh the only reason he didn't match fix is because it wasn't available to him". Maybe he wouldn't have. There is no way of knowing. You can't say that he should be held accountable for a greater crime just because he happened to commit a lesser one.

And yes Spot Fixing is a lesser crime. Bowling a few deliberate no balls is not the same as bowling rubbish for an entire spell, or an entire match. Amir still bowled fantastically around the deliberate no-balls. And so what if one of the no-balls lead to a wicket? That's such a fallacious argument to begin with - that somehow had that same ball been delivered a few inches behind where it was actually delivered, it would have lead to the exact same outcome. But even if you accept this argument, then so what? Wickets off no-balls happen all the time - England have taken 6 wickets off no balls this season alone.

To treat Spot and Match fixing as the same because they both involve actions that "did not help the team cause" is ridiculous. We don't treat shoplifting the same as grand theft auto do we?

The second huge issue is how so many of you are happy to get on your principled high horse and say "Oh Amir should have known better than to do that!". It's like, you are completely ignoring the culture Amir was brought up in, the pressures he was put under, the people he was surrounded by, and the lack of opportunities available to him. You believe that a poor uneducated 19 year old kid from rural Pakistan, playing in a team run by a corrupt cricket board, being put under pressure by his corrupt captain and his corrupt mentor to bowl a handful of no-balls under the threat of having his career ended, is supposed to somehow show the same moral fibre as you. That's absolutely ridiculous.

I have no issue if cricketers want to sledge Amir and call him a thief, but to say he deserves it, and that he should have that label associated with him for the rest...nah just **** off.

 

[harsh.ag]

Too many cop outs in this thread.

You cannot equate Spot Fixing to Match Fixing, and to try and draw a slippery slope argument that "oh the only reason he didn't match fix is because it wasn't available to him". Maybe he wouldn't have. There is no way of knowing. You can't say that he should be held accountable for a greater crime just because he happened to commit a lesser one.

And yes Spot Fixing is a lesser crime. Bowling a few deliberate no balls is not the same as bowling rubbish for an entire spell, or an entire match. Amir still bowled fantastically around the deliberate no-balls. And so what if one of the no-balls lead to a wicket? That's such a fallacious argument to begin with - that somehow had that same ball been delivered a few inches behind where it was actually delivered, it would have lead to the exact same outcome. But even if you accept this argument, then so what? Wickets off no-balls happen all the time - England have taken 6 wickets off no balls this season alone.

To treat Spot and Match fixing as the same because they both involve actions that "did not help the team cause" is ridiculous. We don't treat shoplifting the same as grand theft auto do we?

The second huge issue is how so many of you are happy to get on your principled high horse and say "Oh Amir should have known better than to do that!". It's like, you are completely ignoring the culture Amir was brought up in, the pressures he was put under, the people he was surrounded by, and the lack of opportunities available to him. You believe that a poor uneducated 19 year old kid from rural Pakistan, playing in a team run by a corrupt cricket board, being put under pressure by his corrupt captain and his corrupt mentor to bowl a handful of no-balls under the threat of having his career ended, is supposed to somehow show the same moral fibre as you. That's absolutely ridiculous.

I have no issue if cricketers want to sledge Amir and call him a thief, but to say he deserves it, and that he should have that label associated with him for the rest...nah just **** off.

I have made points pertaining to both sides in this thread at some point. For people saying "in the end, he didn't do match fixing", I think the rebuttal "only because he didn't have the opportunity" is valid, because it's a case of arguing intentions and degree of wrongdoing.

But I am definitely of the opinion to give him a second chance, and shouldn't be labelled a thief for the rest of his life.

 

[Black_Warrior]

Don't want to get into spot fixing vs match fixing discussion. I think people like Honest bharani have already expressed that quite well.

But when people say 'it was just 1 no ball, what's the big deal' I think they are missing the point totally over here.

If as a player you are willing to 'give' 1 run away to the opposition, for your own commercial gain, yes that does mean your team's interests are very low down on your priority list.

It's just 1 run? Have you ever seen fielders throw their body near the boundary line knowing full well the batsmen will run 3, just to save that 1 run? That's called having your team's interest as number 1 priority.

And he bowled a no ball intentionally. How can people possibly say he still had his team's interests in mind when other players risk injury just to save 1 run?

 

[Black_Warrior]

The second huge issue is how so many of you are happy to get on your principled high horse and say "Oh Amir should have known better than to do that!". It's like, you are completely ignoring the culture Amir was brought up in, the pressures he was put under, the people he was surrounded by, and the lack of opportunities available to him. You believe that a poor uneducated 19 year old kid from rural Pakistan, playing in a team run by a corrupt cricket board, being put under pressure by his corrupt captain and his corrupt mentor to bowl a handful of no-balls under the threat of having his career ended, is supposed to somehow show the same moral fibre as you. That's absolutely ridiculous.

I have no issue if cricketers want to sledge Amir and call him a thief, but to say he deserves it, and that he should have that label associated with him for the rest...nah just **** off.

Absolutely, and hence I said that he has served his punishment and deserves a chance. My objection to the original incident wasn't what he did 5 years ago, it is his behariour now

He himself has asked for a certain level of respect and chance to go and prove himself, yet he cannot even get himself to respect another fellow cricketer?
He started that fight with Faisal, not the other way around. Faisal might have used nepotism, but doesn't deserve to be abused randomly in a game for it, just like Amir doesn't deserve to be abused randomly in a game for corruption. But respect is a two way street and that was my original point because someone said Faisal 'deserved' it.

 

[sledger]

Too many cop outs in this thread.

You cannot equate Spot Fixing to Match Fixing, and to try and draw a slippery slope argument that "oh the only reason he didn't match fix is because it wasn't available to him". Maybe he wouldn't have. There is no way of knowing. You can't say that he should be held accountable for a greater crime just because he happened to commit a lesser one.

And yes Spot Fixing is a lesser crime. Bowling a few deliberate no balls is not the same as bowling rubbish for an entire spell, or an entire match. Amir still bowled fantastically around the deliberate no-balls. And so what if one of the no-balls lead to a wicket? That's such a fallacious argument to begin with - that somehow had that same ball been delivered a few inches behind where it was actually delivered, it would have lead to the exact same outcome. But even if you accept this argument, then so what? Wickets off no-balls happen all the time - England have taken 6 wickets off no balls this season alone.

To treat Spot and Match fixing as the same because they both involve actions that "did not help the team cause" is ridiculous. We don't treat shoplifting the same as grand theft auto do we?

The second huge issue is how so many of you are happy to get on your principled high horse and say "Oh Amir should have known better than to do that!". It's like, you are completely ignoring the culture Amir was brought up in, the pressures he was put under, the people he was surrounded by, and the lack of opportunities available to him. You believe that a poor uneducated 19 year old kid from rural Pakistan, playing in a team run by a corrupt cricket board, being put under pressure by his corrupt captain and his corrupt mentor to bowl a handful of no-balls under the threat of having his career ended, is supposed to somehow show the same moral fibre as you. That's absolutely ridiculous.

I have no issue if cricketers want to sledge Amir and call him a thief, but to say he deserves it, and that he should have that label associated with him for the rest...nah just **** off.

Why not? The law does.

 

[Hurricane]

The spot fixing is not equal to Match fixing argument (not that I have read more than *****'s post as that was all I could bear) reminds of me a joke we had in university that it is ok to cheat on your girlfriend as long as you don't shoot your load.

 

[sledger]

The spot fixing is not equal to Match fixing argument (not that I have read more than *****'s post as that was all I could bear) reminds of me a joke we had in university that it is ok to cheat on your girlfriend as long as you don't shoot your load.

A lot of people are attempting to frame it in those sort of terms I think, which is to miss the point. The reason why what Amir and co did is so dire doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the outcome, which certain people seem to think it did or should.

The reason actions were so dire was because they dishonestly accepted a corrupt payment to influence a sporting event in a certain way. Whether their actions affected the outcome of a match, or a small part of it, is basically imaterial.

 

[Hurricane]

A lot of people are attempting to frame it in those sort of terms I think, which is to miss the point. The reason why what Amir and co did is so dire doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the outcome, which certain people seem to think it did or should.

The reason actions were so dire was because they dishonestly accepted a corrupt payment to influence a sporting event in a certain way. Whether their actions affected the outcome of a match, or a small part of it, is basically imaterial.

Then I should have had a ph34r after my post. The reason why that joke I told was a joke is that we all knew it was ridiculous. Cheating on your girlfriend is cheating on your girlfriend. Cheating in a match is cheating in a match.

 

[G.I.Joe]

Just curious - did Amir actively provide proof against the involved agents or players? I cannot help but think that he's taken solely the 'woe is me' approach unlike Lou_Vicente.

 

[sledger]

Then I should have had a ph34r after my post. The reason why that joke I told was a joke is that we all knew it was ridiculous. Cheating on your girlfriend is cheating on your girlfriend. Cheating in a match is cheating in a match.

Oh yeah, I agree entirely. My comment was just alluding to the fact that I think some people in this thread genuinely have adopted an attitude to the whole thing akin to that which underlies the joke you posted, and why that line of thought is no good.

 

[Biryani Pillow]

Spot fixing undermines the integrity of the game in a more subtle way than throwing the whole game (which is very hard to do) and thus is equally abhorrent.

Just curious - did Amir actively provide proof against the involved agents or players? I cannot help but think that he's taken solely the 'woe is me' approach unlike Lou_Vicente.

This appears to be the case,

My view on Amir changed a few weeks ago.

Had I posted on this before mid August I would have said he'd been pressurised by his captain and a senior player - both of whom he looked up to and saw as a guide and mentor - and didn't have strong balancing forces around him.

I then met someone who put me right.

This chap, despite not being in his first flush of youth, was clearly a fine player to the extent that I asked him what level he'd played at in his best days.

"I played first class in Pakistan" he replied - I've checked he did.

My standard follow up question then is "Whose the best player you played against?"

"Shoaib Akhtar" - again, later confirmed.

After the game we were chatting about Pakistan cricket and raised the subject of Amir and my sympathy for him.

I was quickly put right on the matter.

He said not only did he know Amir but had played with him (correct again) and considered him,at the time, to be a good friend.

He said that ALL young players had been warned about this and a strong supporting structure on this matter, and all matter relating to the game and their life was in place.

Amir, he suggested, thought he was to big for this and it didn't apply to him.

I would now not welcome him back to Test cricket.

 

[Flem274*]

amir lied in court and broke the rules of his ban by playing cricket during it.

if he was a 30 year old batsman with a test average in the mid thirties all of you would be throwing the book at him, even if he still had sympathetic factors like depression and came clean/actively helped law enforcement catch other criminals.

but he's pretty to watch so it's ok. the faisal iqbal post said everything.

i can't think of a better candidate to take strike to mitchell johnson at the WACA.

 

[Flem274*]

well ok current chris cairns is a better candidate but he might smoke a few sixes against that aussie spud.

 

[the big bambino]

I have to admit I'm probably more forgiving of Amir bcos of his talent but I think he deserves a 2nd chance due to his age and the corrupt culture he was exposed when he should have been protected. However if he came talking like zoraz and diminishing his culpability I'd think well **** him.

 

[Biryani Pillow]

His talent is irrelevant to the argument.

His age might provide some mitigation.

The 'corrupt culture' in regards to this situation is a myth if (and I'm happy to accept it) what the person I spoke to said is true, he was instructed what to do if approached in such a way. I have been told by current English FC players the form this guidance takes is strong and very clear.

 

[Furball]

His talent is irrelevant to the argument.

His age might provide some mitigation.

The 'corrupt culture' in regards to this situation is a myth if (and I'm happy to accept it) what the person I spoke to said is true, he was instructed what to do if approached in such a way. I have been told by current English FC players the form this guidance takes is strong and very clear.

One of the posters on here is an ex Australian U19 international who played in a World Cup. He's posted before about the anti-corruption guidance they received when he was at that tournament, guidance Amir would also have received.

 

[honestbharani]

Don't want to get into spot fixing vs match fixing discussion. I think people like Honest bharani have already expressed that quite well.

But when people say 'it was just 1 no ball, what's the big deal' I think they are missing the point totally over here.

If as a player you are willing to 'give' 1 run away to the opposition, for your own commercial gain, yes that does mean your team's interests are very low down on your priority list.

It's just 1 run? Have you ever seen fielders throw their body near the boundary line knowing full well the batsmen will run 3, just to save that 1 run? That's called having your team's interest as number 1 priority.

And he bowled a no ball intentionally. How can people possibly say he still had his team's interests in mind when other players risk injury just to save 1 run?

And imagine how many guys sustained big injuries trying to stop that 1 run... Hell, even in the first ODI Ash got injured trying to save 1 run, the latest of many many instances.

 

[Fusion]

Even if we think spot fixing = match fixing, the fact remains that he was punished for his crime and served his time. He didn't get away with it; on the contrary, he paid a very significant price for a very significant crime. For me, the main issue has always been about second chances and redemption. If you look at the circumstances here (a young kid who came from nothing, influenced by his Captain, and who didn't have a prior offense), then it especially makes sense to give him a second chance. And for those saying he should get that chance outside of cricket, that's complete bull. To take away his main chance at making a successful living is certainly not giving him a second chance, it's extending his punishment. Also, I find it strange that all harping about "he broke the rules" are forgetting that his punishment and return is exactly by the rules.

As I've said before, it would be a joy to see him return to the team and I'm rooting for him to succeed and make the best of his second chance in life.