MJ Clarke - numero uno Test batsman?

[Maximas]

Well then it appears we agree, although I wouldn't necessarilly have Dravid above him tbh, depends how much weight you put on consistency and away record I guess

 

[OverratedSanity]

Well then it appears we agree, although I wouldn't necessarilly have Dravid above him tbh, depends how much weight you put on consistency and away record I guess

Yeah Dravid's arguable but that man's overseas record is better even than the stats suggest.... Virtually every single famous indian win away from home in the decade.... Kandy 2001, Headingley 2002, Adelaide 2003, Rawalpindi 2004, Sabina Park 2006, Perth 2008 all had immense performances from Dravid.
It happened too many times to be a mere coincidence.
I do believe that with a few more years of good performances overseas Sanga will overtake him for me

 

[Jassy]

To point to his overall away average is conveniently ignoring that his beating up of Pakistan makes up for failures in a number of other countries. And he has poor records in about half of the countries he has played, that is not cherry picking at all.

I can see I am in the minority but here's a look at the averages inside and outside the subcontinent for some ATG batsmen and others (Bangla and Zim have been excluded):

Outside the subcontinent (for non subcontinent players, this excludes their home country)

1)Michael Clarke 44.25, 6 centuries
2)Younis Khan 41, 4 centuries
3)Kevin Pietersen 44.71, 4 centuries
4)Mohammad Yousuf 44.11, 7 centuries
5)Sangakkara 40.87, 5 centuries
6)Sourav Ganguly, 41.70, 5 centuries
7)Inzamam 42.98, 8 centuries
8)Laxman 42.37, 7 centuries
9)Sehwag 35.36, 5 centuries


10)Tendulkar 50.90, 18 centuries
11)Dravid 52.33, 13 centuries
12)Ponting 50.42, 13 centuries
13)Kallis 47.34, 11 centuries
14)Lara 44.26 11 centuries


Inside the subcontinent(again, excluding home games for the subcontinent players)

1)Kallis 57.24, 6 centuries
2)Tendulkar 56.48, 6 centuries
3)Lara 58.84, 5 centuries
4)Sehwag 79.11, 5 centuries
5)Sangakkara 58.44, 4 centuries
6)Younis Khan 52.03, 4 centuries
7)Inzamam 56.77, 3 centuries
8)Ponting 34.76, 2 centuries
9)Clarke 40.89, 4 centuries
10)Dravid 44.88, 4 centuries

and it goes on and on....


Now if we're to accept the notion that the true test for a subcontinent batsman is away from it and vice-versa it is pretty clear to me where Sangakkara belongs based on the record. I know some will point to Ponting's record in the subcontinent but really, he was fine in Sri Lanka and played well in Pakistan in the limited chances he got (and also neutral venue); it is the one India record that brings it down. I can see I am not going to see eye to eye with a lot of posters on this. For me Sangakkara will always be in the Younis Khan-Inzamam category of very good but not quite great players. His record is not anomaly like Dennis Lillee's in Pakistan or something, it is poor in 4/7 countries away from home (excluding Zim and Bang again) which cannot just be explained away citing vagaries in form or other factors. The way I see it, he does have a problem outside the subcontinent and in lively conditions...more than what a supposedly ATG batsman should have. I hope SL tour Aus/SA/Eng in the near future. The argument can be put to rest one way or the other.

 

[akilana]

Never said he's bad away from home. I'm comparing him with the likes of Kallis and Dravid... While they too have a few countries they failed in, Sanga just has too many atm. I'm talking about sone of the greatest batsmen if the last decade and splitting them obviously means criteria need to be harsh.
Sanga's last England tour frustrated me greatly. He failed repeatedly when the series was alive and then in the dead rubber goes and scores a superb hundred to save the game. It shows he has the ability to play in those conditions but somehow he didn't do it

Sanga stayed in India to play IPL when his team was already in England preparing for the tests. I am sure arriving eariler would have helped.

 

[Challis]

when making comparisons between Clarke and Amla / Sanga, should the fact that the latter two have predominately batted at one down whilst Clarke has largely batted at three down; a position that is perceived to be less demanding, be taken into consideration?

 

[jonbrooks]

Yup, Clarke is number 1 for me but only because it's been a heavy Ashes year and he's got a lot of limelight. Let's see how the likes of Amla and Sanga go in their upcoming tests.

 

[KungFu_Kallis]

Some good points made. The last 2 posts kinda both hit the nail on the head for me

 

[Maximas]

@Jassy:

beating up on Pakistan - you do realise they have had quite a fine bowling attack for some time, doesn't seem to me that playing well against them should be disregarded. And yes, we aren't seeing eye to eye, probably because you place more weight on outside SC performances than I do. SL will tour England for 2 test matches in early season English conditions, so while that won't put anything to bed or set the record completely straight it will give us another look at him. Also worth remembering with Sanga the dual role he used to have which probably affected his batting somewhat earlier in his career, just another factor to consider.

While we agree his record in a few countries is poor, again, I'll point to his oceania (yessss PEWS) average of 60, I don't think you can make a blanket statement he has a problem in lively non SC conditions with that record in mind, even if it's mid thirties in SA/eng - do you think that 156 no on that NZ seamer was a fluke? As much as I don't want to pinpoint certain statistics and averages I honestly find it difficult to say someone has a problem with these conditions with that average in mind.

 

[Jassy]

@Jassy:

beating up on Pakistan - you do realise they have had quite a fine bowling attack for some time, doesn't seem to me that playing well against them should be disregarded. And yes, we aren't seeing eye to eye, probably because you place more weight on outside SC performances than I do. SL will tour England for 2 test matches in early season English conditions, so while that won't put anything to bed or set the record completely straight it will give us another look at him. Also worth remembering with Sanga the dual role he used to have which probably affected his batting somewhat earlier in his career, just another factor to consider.

While we agree his record in a few countries is poor, again, I'll point to his oceania (yessss PEWS) average of 60, I don't think you can make a blanket statement he has a problem in lively non SC conditions with that record in mind, even if it's mid thirties in SA/eng - do you think that 156 no on that NZ seamer was a fluke? As much as I don't want to pinpoint certain statistics and averages I honestly find it difficult to say someone has a problem with these conditions with that average in mind.

His away average is boosted because of Pakistan to a great great extent. Last I checked his away average goes down from 45 to 40 if you exclude Pakistan. Of course excluding someone's best will reduce the overall average but that is a big jump. I could also go ahead and point out and post scorecards of many of these Pakistan matches which were essentially 700 vs 600 kinda games but we'lll leave that. I am not disregarding it by any means. as I mentioned before we could bring up the odd innings for just about anyone. Sehwag scored a 100 in his first innings in Test cricket and that was in SA against Pollock and Ntini with the team in dire straits, Philip Hughes got 2 centuries in 1 match against Steyn and co in SA, Dilshan got a near double in England(and unlike Sanga he did not wait for the series to become dead) etc etc etc. we could pretty much go on and on. Like I said if we're only referring to one innings here and there over and over again then there is a problem. At the end of the day, he averages 40 away from the subcontinent which is considerably less than the likes of even Inzamam and Yousuf. If you don't really care about that that is alright by me, I tend to place a lot of emphasis on performances outside the subcontinent when rating players from the subcontinent. As I see it, a mediocre average(bordering on poor in many of them) in 4/7 countries is bad. I reiterate what I said earlier, it is not one or even two countries that you can explain it away. We're not going to change our viewpoints here, I guess I'll call it a day here unless something new comes up.

 

[akilana]

Sure, it's all conjecture the more you play the worse it is for your average (after a certain point i.e). See Amla averages 100 or something in India and Clarke in the 40s. Who is likely to improve on their record and whose record is likely to get worse? And you still haven't answered, if Amla is sooo much better than Clarke away from home why does Clarke beat him in more countries.

Just explain the difference in away average if Clarke is sooo much better. Amla has dominated the most difficult countries to tour. He had a god-like batting performance in India. 3 hundreds on the trot with 1 being a double. In England he had a triple and then a hundred. In Australia he almost had a double and another hundred. He had 3 awesome away series in the top 3 countries. I am not Clarke has any similar to that against any top nations. Clarke beats Amla in lowere ranked countries with not so great bowling attack. Your intitial point was you rank Clarke for scoring a hundred against a fantastic bowling attack. My point is Amla has that covered. Then you started clutching at straws, arguing Amla's away average will drop blah blah. I am afraid you lost the point by the length of my dick and some.

 

[smash84]

I am afraid you lost the point by the length of my dick and some.

That must be a tiny difference

 

[Jassy]

Just explain the difference in away average if Clarke is sooo much better. Amla has dominated the most difficult countries to tour. He had a god-like batting performance in India. 3 hundreds on the trot with 1 being a double. In England he had a triple and then a hundred. In Australia he almost had a double and another hundred. He had 3 awesome away series in the top 3 countries. I am not Clarke has any similar to that against any top nations. Clarke beats Amla in lowere ranked countries with not so great bowling attack. Your intitial point was you rank Clarke for scoring a hundred against a fantastic bowling attack. My point is Amla has that covered. Then you started clutching at straws, arguing Amla's away average will drop blah blah. I am afraid you lost the point by the length of my dick and some.

I have not missed the point at all then! This post is made up of rubbish based upon things I never said or argued. Good job mate.

 

[ohnoitsyou]

I have not missed the point at all then! This post is made up of rubbish based upon things I never said or argued. Good job mate.

If he's missed your point maybe you should make your point clearerl you have to make your arguments comprehendable to whoever your arguing with. Why do you think I make my arguments so simple

 

[Spark]

Clarke beats Amla in lowere ranked countries with not so great bowling attack.

This is total rubbish, and surely you must know it. Clarke's reputation in recent years has been built on runs against the top three nations.

 

[Beleg]

inzamam is an all-time great, younis khan isn't. clarke definitely is as well and the jury's out on sangakkara.

 

[smash84]

Sangakkara definitely is an ATG

 

[Beleg]

Sangakkara definitely is an ATG

he does bat like one from time to time does he not now. remember feeling it would be almost impossible to dislodge the fella if he decided to apply himself.

 

[NUFAN]

Sangakkara definitely is an ATG

Sanka has come a long way from his early days of throwing Gumnuts at Pews.