• Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

Minnows - Do we need them, do they improve with us?

Dead Badger

State 12th Man
Richard: I don't want to get drawn into a sentence-by-sentence deconstruction, so I won't. At this point, however, your entire argument appears to be that it's always been like this and that's what you like. Well, that's fine as far as it goes, but it's not the most satisfying reasoning, is it? Particularly when you consider that we're talking about a format which has only existed for a few decades. To wiffle on about the purity of cricket and the preservation of elitism, pooh-poohing the possibility of change is completely ridiculous when we're watching guys in coloured uniforms, wearing helmets, playing a format only finalised within most of the players' lifetimes. Times change. You know they have women at the MCC now, too?

Successful sports are broad-based, well balanced and meritocratic; the whole basis of sporting endeavour's appeal is that competitors are tested by their actions, not by their reputation. If you're arguing that opening a sport up will lead to the wrong people winning, you must, in my opinion, be tacitly admitting that something is wrong with your sport. I don't think there's much wrong with cricket; I think it's fascinating in many ways that aren't found in other sports, and I love it for that reason. I don't see how allowing Ireland their chance to take on the big boys mitigates this fascination in the slightest. Indeed, the very fact that a team of supposed has-beens, amateurs and journeymen could take on the might of Pakistan and win to me illustrates that the supposed elite are in fact in grave danger of complacent stagnation.

Is it really your opinion that cricket is so weak, so fragile, so ... contrived, that we can't even permit lesser teams to compete, for fear they might win? Are you so wedded to your ideas of tradition and history that you won't even contemplate the idea that a Test nation might be humbled by a minnow? Even if it means compromising the whole point, the whole purpose of sport? The very definition of "sporting" gives the lie to your argument: "involving risk or willingness to take a risk." You seem so devoted to the ideal of perpetuating what has gone before that you forget that there was a time before this weight of history, a time when all there was was the idea that players should go out, perform to their best, and seek a result. Now you want to relive endlessly the series of yesteryear, but to what purpose? Who else besides you is going to be interested in such a charade?

Your arguments are similar to those used by industrial protectionists, and just as flawed. If cricket, like our industrial champions of old, is so weak as to require such mollycoddling to preserve it, does it really deserve to survive? I think it has more than enough strength, character and history to survive in the modern world; but to do so it has to be opened up to proper competition. You think you advocate protection, but you advocate stagnation. You would have cricket turn into the Rover of the sporting world; a curate's egg of a sport, endlessly re-enacting the glory days while real sportsmen pursue some hideous tiddlywinks-esque pastime like baseball. I'm not having it, I'm really not.

I am absolutely loving this bit about "political nations", though. As if the plain fact of nationhood is just some trifling detail that must inevitably bow to tradition. Cricket transcends piffling matters such as national borders, dontcherknow. :D
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
It does indeed - hence there's no good reason for Ireland, Wales, England and Scotland to play under the same flag.

I have absolutely no intention of stagnation - but the simple fact of the matter is that Globalisation is nowhere near as much of a gettability as some seem to believe. The game as we have now is fine. There's no need to wreck it by having a World Cup of 11 mismatches for the sake of 1 upset. Expansion, if it happens, IS NOT going to happen thanks to the odd upset.

BTW - I'm presuming you're somewhat older than me, yet you paint me as the Old-School Exclusionist? :wacko::blink: Doesn't work that way, I'm afraid.
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
BTW - I'm presuming you're somewhat older than me, yet you paint me as the Old-School Exclusionist? Doesn't work that way, I'm afraid.
I'm painted as that on another forum where I'm quite easily the youngest regularly contributor to the cricket section - it happens quite often really. Preserving the game's history and integrity isn't confined within the boundries of age despite the stereotypes behind that line of thinking though, so it's quite unsubstanciated.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
I'm painted as such a thing far, far too often by the Bangladeshi imbecile types on this forum who haven't a clue about a thing about me.

I'm well aware it can happen - it's just kinda odd being told such a thing when the reverse-psychology is so obviously being applied.
 

Dead Badger

State 12th Man
BTW - I'm presuming you're somewhat older than me, yet you paint me as the Old-School Exclusionist? :wacko::blink: Doesn't work that way, I'm afraid.
What is this, a non sequitur version of Mornington Crescent? Funnily enough, I judge people by what they say, not by what I guess their age to be. I've encountered stick-in-the-muds of all ages, and don't really care how much hair you still have. Your arguments are quite plainly regressive; I don't see why you would even want to dispute this, since it seems to be the basis of your entire opinion.

For what it's worth, I'm 27; I have literally no idea what impact this has on my points, which you have yet to even try to address. Perhaps you ought to try - in my experience, that's the way it "works". Observe; I can take a couple of your statements, like so:
I have absolutely no intention of stagnation
...
The game as we have now is fine.
And by merely putting them together I can point out the inherent contradiction. There you go; that's debate for you. I didn't need to guess how old you are, how much of a cricket fan you are, any of this crap. The whole business of working out who's allowed to have what sort of opinion is truly tiresome; especially so, when I've gone to all the trouble of expressing my arguments with words. You don't need to guess; I wrote it all down for you. Could I trouble you to read it?
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
There's no contradiction - stagnation requires things not to be fine as they are.

Cricket does not require expansion, and it is not a given that it can achieve it whether it would require it to survive or not. That's not a regressive mindset - it's just the simple truth of the matter. Not once in the last 70 years has cricket gained territory in those admitted to the international fold - and yet it's continued in rude health throughout.

I am no exlcusionist - I'll be delighted if the game gets bigger elsewhere and gains further territory. Yet with minor exceptions, there's at the current time no evidence that such a thing can happen.
 

Dead Badger

State 12th Man
Advocates of stagnation always think things are fine as they are, and continue professing their daft belief until not only is nobody watching the matches, but nobody cares to even have the discussion with them. That's why we'd still be driving Rover Metros if certain people had their way. Why bother making British cars better when we can just slap tariffs on everyone else's cars? Oh, our cars are crap now? Oooh, bugger.
I am no exlcusionist - I'll be delighted if the game gets bigger elsewhere and gains further territory. Yet with minor exceptions, there's at the current time no evidence that such a thing can happen.
Other than the fact that a supposedly minor team just beat one of the "best" teams in the world, of course. One wonders what evidence might convince you; Irish players sprouting wings, perhaps? Actually, I'm serious: if you answer any point at all in your next post, could you please address this one: what, exactly, would it take to convince you a nation is worthy of joining in the major ODI scene?

I notice we've dropped the age tack, too. Weird. This is supposed to be a conversation, not dialectic pic'n'mix. Could you pick a point and stick with it?
 

LA ICE-E

State Captain
really if its fine the way it is, why do people think that it would be better if cricket had more nations playing?(its not just the icc that wants it) Also, can you please differentiate ireland from scotland, because it's a different country than UK, and even than its the scottish who wants to seperate(its not the case of anyone else seperating 'em) they want to seperate themselves from england....if the golabilasion is happening, and its still in its early phases so give it time...are you saying that there weren't any mismatches in the fifa world cup? there were plently....every tournament have miss matches some more than others...but to draw the line at 8 doesn't give the associates even a chance....like it or not the world cup will keep expanding with more and more teams getting better and the organizers are going to change the formats to keep it around two months...until they find the perfect one and stick with it which by the way this is pretty close to
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Advocates of stagnation always think things are fine as they are, and continue professing their daft belief until not only is nobody watching the matches, but nobody cares to even have the discussion with them. That's why we'd still be driving Rover Metros if certain people had their way. Why bother making British cars better when we can just slap tariffs on everyone else's cars? Oh, our cars are crap now? Oooh, bugger.
Things cannot continue to grow indefinately. WTF does it matter whether we've stopped making decent British cars? There doesn't seem to be a problem with the imports.

Cricket has not expanded once in the last 70 years - I'd say that's enough evidence that it's not an absolute neccessity.
Other than the fact that a supposedly minor team just beat one of the "best" teams in the world, of course. One wonders what evidence might convince you; Irish players sprouting wings, perhaps? Actually, I'm serious: if you answer any point at all in your next post, could you please address this one: what, exactly, would it take to convince you a nation is worthy of joining in the major ODI scene?
How about being better than the weakest domestic team in the domestic competition it was playing in, and proving that by constantly topping the table in that competition?

One game against a stronger team proves nothing in comparison to such a thing. It's absolutely ludicrous to base the assumption that beating one of the Test\ODI class teams one piddling time makes a team into such a thing - just look at the Bangladesh example.
I notice we've dropped the age tack, too. Weird. This is supposed to be a conversation, not dialectic pic'n'mix. Could you pick a point and stick with it?
I haven't "dropped" anything - I asked a question, it was answered. I had wondered whether you were somewhat older than you state you are, but as I say - I've received an answer.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
really if its fine the way it is, why do people think that it would be better if cricket had more nations playing?(its not just the icc that wants it)
Because things don't have to be bad to get better. Cricket is absoutely fine as it is - but it could be better still if more countries could get playing it to a decent standard.
Also, can you please differentiate ireland from scotland, because it's a different country than UK, and even than its the scottish who wants to seperate(its not the case of anyone else seperating 'em) they want to seperate themselves from england....
No, I won't differentiate either - the way thoughout the entire history of the game has been for all 5 countries of the British Isles to play as one. Had the team been properly named, it'd never have been an issue.
if the golabilasion is happening, and its still in its early phases so give it time...are you saying that there weren't any mismatches in the fifa world cup? there were plently....every tournament have miss matches some more than others...
WTF? Where did I say such a thing? Of course there were mismatches in the FIFA WC.
but to draw the line at 8 doesn't give the associates even a chance....like it or not the world cup will keep expanding with more and more teams getting better and the organizers are going to change the formats to keep it around two months...
The Associates don't deserve a chance. World Cups are not about little boys getting their aesses kicked, they're about big boys playing some serious cricket.
until they find the perfect one and stick with it which by the way this is pretty close to
So long as things keep changing there'll be no perfect format which will stay perfect.
 

LA ICE-E

State Captain
you're ignorant if you're saying cricket haven't expanded in the last 70 years...take afghanstan for expample, take nepal for example among others...if you want to see prograss may be yous should pay some attention to the minnow/associate tournaments...expansion doesn't mean how many countries are playing test cricket but how many people are playing cricket and its increasing...
 

LA ICE-E

State Captain
Because things don't have to be bad to get better. Cricket is absoutely fine as it is - but it could be better still if more countries could get playing it to a decent standard.

No, I won't differentiate either - the way thoughout the entire history of the game has been for all 5 countries of the British Isles to play as one. Had the team been properly named, it'd never have been an issue.

WTF? Where did I say such a thing? Of course there were mismatches in the FIFA WC.

The Associates don't deserve a chance. World Cups are not about little boys getting their aesses kicked, they're about big boys playing some serious cricket.

So long as things keep changing there'll be no perfect format which will stay perfect.
so why would it be the world cup if it doesn't let teams from the world out site the test nations play? dont we have champions trophy for that? what you want to champions trophy? Pakistan didn't kick anyones ass but instead got their ass kicked and they are the "big boys" right?
 

LA ICE-E

State Captain
How about being better than the weakest domestic team in the domestic competition it was playing in, and proving that by constantly topping the table in that competition?
ah they have players playing for other teams in the domestic competitions its not the same teams...
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
you're ignorant if you're saying cricket haven't expanded in the last 70 years...take afghanstan for expample, take nepal for example among others...if you want to see prograss may be yous should pay some attention to the minnow/associate tournaments...expansion doesn't mean how many countries are playing test cricket but how many people are playing cricket and its increasing...
Afghanistan may have the potential to become a real force but right now it's nothing but that.

Cricket has always been played in non-regular countries - and there's always been the hope that it'll expand there. The reality has always been somewhat different - and until there's real evidence that a country is on the road to the top level, it's stupid to presume such a thing.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
so why would it be the world cup if it doesn't let teams from the world out site the test nations play?
I've done this before - if you want it to be the World Cup in that sense, invite 200-odd teams. All I care about is the 8 best sides.
dont we have champions trophy for that? what you want to champions trophy?
Nope, the Champions Trophy is just a shorter, sharper version of the WC. And in case you missed it, it took 5 tries to get that right.
Pakistan didn't kick anyones ass but instead got their ass kicked and they are the "big boys" right?
Not right now they're not. But they will be again before long.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
ah they have players playing for other teams in the domestic competitions its not the same teams...
No, they don't. Any Irishman who's good enough to play for a county will not play for Ireland - in either the C&G or the WC.

Check the facts before making silly comments like that.
 

LA ICE-E

State Captain
Afghanistan may have the potential to become a real force but right now it's nothing but that.

Cricket has always been played in non-regular countries - and there's always been the hope that it'll expand there. The reality has always been somewhat different - and until there's real evidence that a country is on the road to the top level, it's stupid to presume such a thing.
what about the fact that they are aiming to make 2011 wc? cricket wasn't played in afghanstan because it was banned there.
 

LA ICE-E

State Captain
I've done this before - if you want it to be the World Cup in that sense, invite 200-odd teams. All I care about is the 8 best sides.

Nope, the Champions Trophy is just a shorter, sharper version of the WC. And in case you missed it, it took 5 tries to get that right.

Not right now they're not. But they will be again before long.
yeah guess what? they do invite all the countries! and then out of that 16 makes it...so if there's spot for 8 countries and all the top 8 automatically qualifies how do you give the other countries to play? So basically all the countries take part in the world cup but you just watch the main part of it.

Yeah, i noticed but still think it should be scrapped

So if they aint the top 8 right now why do you want them in the top 8?
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
No, they don't. Any Irishman who's good enough to play for a county will not play for Ireland - in either the C&G or the WC.

Check the facts before making silly comments like that.

The facts like Eoin Morgan and Niall O'Brien?

Both Irish, both good enough to play for a county.

Both playing for Ireland in the World Cup.
 

Nemesis27

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
Bangladesh can no longer be considered a minnow, they have proven several times they can mix it with the best and they will be at least competitive in the super 8's

On the other hand, Ireland may not be as competitive, but if other teams begin to assume that they will whip them and don't actually try, then Ireland could pull an upset. However, if you replay that Ireland, Pakistan game 99 times, I reckon Pakistan would of won at least 98 times, unless the match was fixed of course.

I have no problems with the inclusion of minnows in this world cup, but the fixturing system of this world cup means that the Minnows have to only pull off one flukish, D/L Method upset to advance to the super 8 stage, which is ridiculous. I prefered the old system whereby a couple of wins were required in the group stage, minnows would have to prove more than once, that they are the real deal. Kenya did get to the semi's of the world cup last time though, but courtesy of some D/L wins.

I fear for Ireland during the super 8's, and don't want to see them get smashed, so I hope they can be competitve, since they have qualified for the next phase of the competition.
 

Top