Michael Holding vs Kagiso Rabada

[ma1978]

Also home tests matter too

 

[capt_Luffy]

Holding would make my top 10 bowlers ever(Marshall, Steyn, Mcgrath, Hadlee, Murali, Imran, Ambrose, Warne, Holding, Lillee, Akram, Donald, O’Reilly)

Garner should be in that list, agree with the rest (given you ignore Barnes).

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Garner should be in that list, agree with the rest (given you ignore Barnes).

Garner is behind cause he never had success in the SC(10 wickets in 3 matches in Pak don’t add to much impact). Holding was far superior in SC, better in Aus(bigger hauls, better WPM etc, and a better record despite having a horrid series earlier) and equally good in England. Holding just sucked in NZ for some reason, but Garner’s lack of performance is a major impediment along with a lack of fifers(he has only 7 in 58 games. By contrast, Holding has 5 in Australia itself).

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Holding, Rabada, Steyn and Akram are the best pacers to watch

 

[capt_Luffy]

Garner is behind cause he never had success in the SC(10 wickets in 3 matches in Pak don’t add to much impact). Holding was far superior in SC, better in Aus(bigger hauls, better WPM etc) and equally good in England. Holding just sucked in NZ for some reason, but Garner’s lack of performance is a major impediment along with a lack of fifers(he has only 7 in 58 games. By contrast, Holding has 5 in Australia itself).

I am not a big 5-fer/century guy really. Re SC, the only tour he played, he did pretty damn great. 10 wickets in 3 matches @16, in pretty flatish pitches may not be a big enough sample size, but unlike someone like saying Lillee, kinda proves he could had thrived there. Holding himself never played in Pakistan (tougher for touring pacers than India) and played a single series in SC, to his absolute credit an ATG one. Also, Garner is better in England (5 runs better Avg and 0.5 WPM). His record there stupendously good, despite Holding having the better standalone match. Also close to him in Australia and was Great in NZ, a place where many Great WIndian players have sucked for some reason. Also Garner was better at home slightly.

 

[BazBall21]

Holding had huge tours of England, Australia and India which is a great balance of conditions and was very good at home.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

I am not a big 5-fer/century guy really. Re SC, the only tour he played, he did pretty damn great. 10 wickets in 3 matches @16, in pretty flatish pitches may not be a big enough sample size, but unlike someone like saying Lillee, kinda proves he could had thrived there. Holding himself never played in Pakistan (tougher for touring pacers than India) and played a single series in SC, to his absolute credit an ATG one. Also, Garner is better in England (5 runs better Avg and 0.5 WPM). His record there stupendously good, despite Holding having the better standalone match. Also close to him in Australia and was Great in NZ, a place where many Great WIndian players have sucked for some reason. Also Garner was better at home slightly.

However Holding proving himself in the SC makes the major difference along with more standout performances. And the lack of fifers and big hauls matters: compare their performances in the 81/82 series in Aus: Holding took 24 wickets in 3 matches, Garner only 12, but they have similar averages. Garner was lucky not to be exposed at a raw stage to Aus in 75/76. Holding post that was a giant in Aus for many series, which Garner never matched.

 

[capt_Luffy]

However Holding proving himself in the SC makes the major difference along with more standout performances. And the lack of fifers and big hauls matters: compare their performances in the 81/82 series in Aus: Holding took 24 wickets in 3 matches, Garner only 12, but they have similar averages. Garner was lucky not to be exposed at a raw stage to Aus in 75/76. Holding post that was a giant in Aus for many series, which Garner never matched.

75/76 was very pace friendly though, Holding legit failed there. With context of him being a youngster it's understandable, but he really should had done better where Lillee, Thommo and Roberts wrecked havoc. And while he did had the higher ceiling, Garner has a higher WPM (9 more wickets in 2 less matches). He seldom took big hauls but was hardly crap anytime either, unlike Holding who had a habit of turning hot and cold. Re Asia, Holding does have the advantage there with an ATG tour, but he also has only one tour under his belt and none in Pakistan, which is in many ways was tougher for touring pacers. Garner had a good albeit not great tour of Pakistan as well.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

75/76 was very pace friendly though, Holding legit failed there. With context of him being a youngster it's understandable, but he really should had done better where Lillee, Thommo and Roberts wrecked havoc. And while he did had the higher ceiling, Garner has a higher WPM (9 more wickets in 2 less matches). He seldom took big hauls but was hardly crap anytime either, unlike Holding who had a habit of turning hot and cold. Re Asia, Holding does have the advantage there with an ATG tour, but he also has only one tour under his belt and none in Pakistan, which is in many ways was tougher for touring pacers. Garner had a good albeit not great tour of Pakistan as well.

ATG tour of India on concrete pitches vs Gavaskar, Vengsarkar etc is enough. 10 wickets in 3 matches is not. Holding was clearly better in Aus and Asia, while being great in Eng. he is more of a all conditions player

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Holding post his 75-76 hit heights in Aus which were massively great, and for a good number of series

 

[capt_Luffy]

ATG tour of India on concrete pitches vs Gavaskar, Vengsarkar etc is enough. 10 wickets in 3 matches is not. Holding was clearly better in Aus and Asia, while being great in Eng. he is more of a all conditions player

Fair. Garner was better at home, in England and NZ, while not being any bad in Aus himself. 10 wickets in 3 matches isn't enough, but it was a good series imo.

 

[Coronis]

Will say in regards to Garner’s lack of 5’fers, coming in after Roberts, Croft and Holding made taking them more difficult.

He didn’t open the bowling until 1984, but when he did, showed he was more than capable of being up to the task.

26 matches 49 innings 127 @ 20.22 5 5’fers
Also took 1/3 in his last over coming in behind Walsh and Gray (another of the Windies battery cut down by injuries) in his final innings, a match where the Windies had already lost basically.

Pretty great final 3 years.

 

[kyear2]

Holding is an ATG bowler and probably the most underrated. Had major ATG series in Ind, Aus and Eng. Better than Donald and Lillee, for proper domination across conditions

Ohh, that's a strong statement.

Donald was terrifying and honestly I think the most underrated of the great pacers.

Lillee is a strange case, seen as the best when he retired and still one of the 3 highest peer rated bowlers.
But he was rarely tested outside of his comfort zone, especially that trio of nations.

But a couple things. It isn't quite an Ashwin or Trueman story so much, where they were dropped or struggled. So is it fair to say he couldn't have succeeded?
And also was the SC seen as that important in the 70's? Sunny being there would have elevated it somewhat I imagine. The Caribbean though was a notable absence.

So do we rate him, as many obviously have,.on what he actually did? Or on the same scale that we now apply to all the pacers?