really! comparing to bradman is like saying he is the g.o.a.t so are you saying messi is a greater player than maradona, pele et al? not arguing, just curious...
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Messi v Cristiano
- Thread starter grecian
- Start date
Ikki
Hall of Fame Member
The thing is, although goals are the most important thing...you could be a player that scores 0 and still be the GOAT in theory. Footballers are that dynamic and their skills that varied. It's probably more objective to compare players in similar positions/roles.
But even amongst goal scorers, Messi and Ronaldo aren't outliers. They're outliers in this current era, but there are other players with similar or better scoring records on the offensive end (Gerd Muller, Pele, Eusebio, Romario, etc) throughout history. What makes it even tougher to compare are the eras and standards of play, but more than that the teams they play in make it even more difficult to compare. Barca and Real have had ridiculously talented squads both for the league and Europe and it's definitely to their advantage.
Bradman would be more represented if you had a player that basically averaged a hat-trick every game. No one ever has come close to replicating that.
But even amongst goal scorers, Messi and Ronaldo aren't outliers. They're outliers in this current era, but there are other players with similar or better scoring records on the offensive end (Gerd Muller, Pele, Eusebio, Romario, etc) throughout history. What makes it even tougher to compare are the eras and standards of play, but more than that the teams they play in make it even more difficult to compare. Barca and Real have had ridiculously talented squads both for the league and Europe and it's definitely to their advantage.
Bradman would be more represented if you had a player that basically averaged a hat-trick every game. No one ever has come close to replicating that.
sledger
Spanish_Vicente
He's going for Tom Nichols, obvs.
mullarkey
School Boy/Girl Captain
actually yes and he didn'tplay!
OverratedSanity
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So instead of the guy who got his team through the Group almost singlehandedly and then missed a big chance in the final, you choose the guy who missed 4-5 glorious chances in his team's final group game which led to them going home early? Ok
Ikki
Hall of Fame Member
Read a comment that was a Guardian Pick that aligns how I think about these players.
But Messi doesn't even need to score to be the best player on the pitch. Argentina just beat Paraguay 6-1 to get in the final of the Copa America, he didn't score once but assisted 3 and was involved in the others. It's not that he is a defensive beast either; but his involvement on the ball is second to none. He is a genius, some kind of savant.
Ronaldo doesn't get enough credit - possibly because Messi exists and he can appear a bit of a **** - but the fact that he is close puts him, for me, in the top, top echelon of players. In fact, I think he's comfortably more valuable than someone like Zidane or the fat Ronaldo. If he's a limited player because he is basically an offensive phenom, they're similarly limited for same or other reasons.
But Messi doesn't even need to score to be the best player on the pitch. Argentina just beat Paraguay 6-1 to get in the final of the Copa America, he didn't score once but assisted 3 and was involved in the others. It's not that he is a defensive beast either; but his involvement on the ball is second to none. He is a genius, some kind of savant.
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OverratedSanity
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Yeah that's what sets Messi apart. He's an insane goal machine but even when he's not putting the ball into the net he's always producing something. Even in the UCL final where he didn't score, he provided a lovely diagonal for the first goal and it was his run and shot which Buffon parried into Suarez's path. Basically, Scoring Messi=Scoring Ronaldo, but non-scoring Messi>non-scoring Ronaldo.
Ikki
Hall of Fame Member
Mine
Still maintain that all-round CMs like Mathaus and Stevie are more valuable than guys like Zidane. But Messi is the GOAT, without debate and question. Looking back on it, Uppercut had it right...he was that good then and I (and many others) could probably have made his case even then. I guess while that kind of conservative rating of players puts you in good stead 99% of the time, there are those times when you're actually looking at the greatest footballer player ever.
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vcs
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Messi was doing ridiculous things with a football as early as 2006 when he destroyed Mourinho's Chelsea (who were dominating the PL back then) on a potato patch. He stood out while playing alongside prime Ronaldinho, Eto'o, Deco etc in that game. Then the hattrick in 2007 against Real Madrid, then that goal against Getafe, and it was pretty clear he was something special even though Cristiano was putting up the numbers and winning trophies and making his claim for best in the world. He just had to stay fit and reach his potential, which he did after Guardiola came in.
Another hattrick yesterday.
Another hattrick yesterday.
Scaly piscine
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Find it interesting that people go on about Ronaldo winning games single handed. Apart from the daft idea that one person is going to win a game on his own (Ronaldo and Messi have both been pretty anonymous for their countries) the fact is Ronaldo makes himself the focus for everything, he takes all the penalties, free kicks. Ronaldo is also much more ball greedy and expects everything to revolve around him. In pretty much every scenario I'd rather have Messi.
harsh.ag
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Shooting from a distance though. For a time, Ronaldo was unbelievable at that.
Scaly piscine
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Well he probably has a better long range shot on him than Messi because of the power, but again it could simply be that Ronaldo tries it a lot more often.