Me on leg-spin

[marc71178]

Originally posted by Rik

Originally posted by marc71178
Cddick has over 200 Test wickets, Hoggard reached 50 wickets quicker than any other current England bowler.

County averages basically mean nothing at Test level, and to be honest, none of that list of players deserve to be out in Australia with the full side at the moment.

Caddick has 200 Test Wickets at an average of 30, Hoggard has allways averaged around 30 and is now averaging 35. Now lets see the FC averages of 3 current or recent England Bowlers:

Hoggard FC Average: 26.13
Caddick FC Average: 24.87
Cork FC Average: 26.14

Now compared with the best 3 county players

Dean FC Average: 22.94
Saggers FC Average: 22.41
Kirtley FC Average: 24.90

Now if we are not going to reward players who have done well then who are we going to replace Caddick with when he retires? Also if FC averages mean nothing then how come there are lots of bowlers with better FC averages than the Test Bowlers? Surely the emphisis must be on who would take the wickets cheaper rather than who seems to be "the right type." The only reason why none of these (deserving) players would be picked is because the Selectors are more concerned with "Character" rather than "Ability." If a bowler is taking wickets at under or just over 20 runs a piece then he must be doing something right! If I was faced with picking a bowler who took 50 wickets at 26 or one who had taken 80 at 21 then I know who I would pick...

Maybe the reason for the difference in averages is because whilst those 3 are playing against pathetic sides, Hoggard and Caddick have been playing against the likes of India, Sri Lanka, Australia, Pakistan and the West Indies?

Face it, none of those players you named are quality seamers - they're good county pros who shouldn't come near to playing Test Cricket, and haven't.

 

[Rik]

Other interisting stats...

Because I got bored:

In all FC Cricket Kirtley took 256 wickets in the last 4 seasons at 23.48 in 58 games

In all FC Cricket Saggers took 216 Wickets in the last 4 seasons at 21.65 in 49 matches, but only played 2 matches in the 1st of those 4 years...

In all FC Cricket Dean took 173 Wickets in 33 matches in the last 4 seasons at 22.09 in 33 matches but he only played 3 matches in the 1st of those 4 years and was injured quite often so if you take his stats in the last 5 years he has 247 Wickets at 21.83 in 47 matches.

Not bad for "County Pros, nothing else" eh?



[Edited on 28/11/2002 by Rik]

 

[Rik]

"Face it, none of those players you named are quality seamers - they're good county pros who shouldn't come near to playing Test Cricket, and haven't."

So a typical county pro takes his wickets at 21-22 runs a wicket? :frog:

 

[Kimbo]

I'm a leg spinner but I am not biased. Not every team needs a leg spinner. A talented leg spinner is worth a lot but there are some pretty shocking ones. I think good leg spinners need encouragement, and that must be what is missing in England.
I have been encouraged by some good coaches, but if it weren't for them I am sure I would have given up. NZ is very influenced by Aussie. NZ cricket likes to copy Australia, they are the perfect role model. So, if Aussie wants to support leggies then so does NZ.... lucky for me!
I don't think England can disagree with Aussie's stance on leg spin until they start producing some decent bowlers taht can perform.

 

[Andre]

I'm the same as Sunil, a leg spinner, and I agree with her. Chris, do you take in to account that it is better to have no leg spinner than an ordinary one?/ The reason England don't pick one is that THEY DON'T HAVE ONE! Tell me all you like about Chris Schofield, but he still can't land a leg break, and a good one at that, 5 of every 6 balls, which at 16 I can do (not saying I'll ever play international cricket). You have to take into account that Shane Warne and Stuart MacGill are both once in a lifetime bowlers in the same generation.

In the English side, they just can't afford to gamble. Couinty cricket kills most young talents anyway, cause they lose the hunger to take wickets and score runs because they know their next opportunity is just afew days away. There is no point in picking a leg-spinner in sides just for the sake of it. I'd rather have someone like Giles or Dawson ahead of Schofield. I pose they question, how can you take wickets if you can't put any pressure on the batsman. With all leggies in England bowling 2-3 bad balls per over, they simply cannot apply any pressure and are therefore inadequate.

Atleast Giles and Dawson can help apply pressure, despite the fact they will never set the world on fire. L:ook at all the great leggies - Warne, Qudir, Benaud etc. They all get wickets through the sheer pressure they6 put on batsman, not simply because of the fact they could bowl a good leg-break.

 

[marc71178]

So a typical county pro takes his wickets at 21-22 runs a wicket? :frog:

I said GOOD county pros, not typical county pros, there is a big difference.

The likes of Graham Hick and Mark Ramprakash are also good county pros, but that's still not what this thread was intended for.

One might argue the reason for these lower averages are that the top English players no longer play any County Cricket, so that's several good batsmen and main bowlers out of county sides, thus weakening it.

Rik, if you want to continue this discussion, start a thread for it - having finally got Chris to put his points forward, I don't want to see the thread hijacked!

 

[marc71178]

Well, I see both Warne and MacGill are over here next year. Of the 20 working with Jenner, Chris, are any of them linked to Notts or Hamps?

 

[marc71178]

Incidentally, I just started an England game on ICC2002 and selected Schofiled, just to see what he could do - he took a fair few wickets in the 1st 2 Test's played, so it looks like I'm stuck with him!

Still, it was a mad game, Hussain and Flintoff put on 395 for the 5th wicket.

 

[chris.hinton]

Originally posted by Rich2001

Originally posted by chris.hinton
Spinner should take Wickets not Contain

I agree, and also I blieve S.Warne made the same point when he was over here with Hamps (on the cricket4 roadshow/master-class)

He said that it isn't a spinners job to keep the score down, spinners always invite the batsman to take them on and a bowler shouldn't be down-hearted if he gets hit out of the ground, because it shows that the batsman is willing to hit over the top (therefore a higher risk of getting out)

And quoted from Warne from the Cricket4 site.

"One of the hardest things as a spin bowler when your growing up is to grip the ball and have the accuracy, so as a spin bowler you can get whacked out the park and lose the ball and all your mates start saying ?that?s a good delivery isn?t it, it?s out for six?. But no matter how far they hit you out of the park the ball will always come back, or another ball, so you still get a chance to get him out next ball."

Jenner was on the same program with his Acadamy if you remember it, My brother was the one bowling

 

[chris.hinton]

Originally posted by Andre
I'm the same as Sunil, a leg spinner, and I agree with her. Chris, do you take in to account that it is better to have no leg spinner than an ordinary one?/ The reason England don't pick one is that THEY DON'T HAVE ONE! Tell me all you like about Chris Schofield, but he still can't land a leg break, and a good one at that, 5 of every 6 balls, which at 16 I can do (not saying I'll ever play international cricket). You have to take into account that Shane Warne and Stuart MacGill are both once in a lifetime bowlers in the same generation.

In the English side, they just can't afford to gamble. Couinty cricket kills most young talents anyway, cause they lose the hunger to take wickets and score runs because they know their next opportunity is just afew days away. There is no point in picking a leg-spinner in sides just for the sake of it. I'd rather have someone like Giles or Dawson ahead of Schofield. I pose they question, how can you take wickets if you can't put any pressure on the batsman. With all leggies in England bowling 2-3 bad balls per over, they simply cannot apply any pressure and are therefore inadequate.

Atleast Giles and Dawson can help apply pressure, despite the fact they will never set the world on fire. L:ook at all the great leggies - Warne, Qudir, Benaud etc. They all get wickets through the sheer pressure they6 put on batsman, not simply because of the fact they could bowl a good leg-break.

I fully Agree with you Andre, they Reason i back Schofield is that he was treated crap against Zimbabwe anfd plus the fact he can bat a bit, but he really is not good enough

 

[chris.hinton]

Originally posted by marc71178
Well, I see both Warne and MacGill are over here next year. Of the 20 working with Jenner, Chris, are any of them linked to Notts or Hamps?

There are tow leggie at Notts who are at the system

to see the 20 who took part in 2002 go to this

http://www.sxyc.co.uk/tj.html

 

[Rik]

Originally posted by chris.hinton

Originally posted by marc71178
Well, I see both Warne and MacGill are over here next year. Of the 20 working with Jenner, Chris, are any of them linked to Notts or Hamps?

There are tow leggie at Notts who are at the system

to see the 20 who took part in 2002 go to this

http://www.sxyc.co.uk/tj.html

I heard of David Barrick when he signed for Yorkshire when he was a 16 year old...strangely I've heard nothing about him since...

 

[Rik]

Originally posted by marc71178

So a typical county pro takes his wickets at 21-22 runs a wicket? :frog:

I said GOOD county pros, not typical county pros, there is a big difference.

The likes of Graham Hick and Mark Ramprakash are also good county pros, but that's still not what this thread was intended for.

One might argue the reason for these lower averages are that the top English players no longer play any County Cricket, so that's several good batsmen and main bowlers out of county sides, thus weakening it.

Rik, if you want to continue this discussion, start a thread for it - having finally got Chris to put his points forward, I don't want to see the thread hijacked!

Well you will never know unless you give them a go...anyway your mind is set on all the good bowlers in England being crap...:saint:

 

[marc71178]

Originally posted by chris.hinton

Originally posted by marc71178
Well, I see both Warne and MacGill are over here next year. Of the 20 working with Jenner, Chris, are any of them linked to Notts or Hamps?

There are tow leggie at Notts who are at the system

to see the 20 who took part in 2002 go to this

http://www.sxyc.co.uk/tj.html

Well lets hope MacGill passes on some advice to them.

 

[marc71178]

Well you will never know unless you give them a go...anyway your mind is set on all the good bowlers in England being crap...:saint:

At what point have I said that? I've only said that they're not International class, which they're not.

What would any of those players add to the attack that isn't already there? Not a lot because success at County Level doesn't demand a great deal of effort.

 

[chris.hinton]

Lets hope that we can start buliding for the Future by Bringing Kids Though to test level

My Hinton plan will be written up shortly, i will send it to the E.C.B

 

[Rik]

Originally posted by marc71178

Well you will never know unless you give them a go...anyway your mind is set on all the good bowlers in England being crap...:saint:

At what point have I said that? I've only said that they're not International class, which they're not.

What would any of those players add to the attack that isn't already there? Not a lot because success at County Level doesn't demand a great deal of effort.

Yes but they are the best in England at the moment and basically what your saying is that bowlers who do well don't deserve to be called up while other bowlers who have done less well are called up to England. Now at least 2 of the players I mentioned are left armers which England could use as a variation. Anyway how do you know they are only County Standard? Have they been given the chance to show that they are more? No? Then you don't have an argument.

 

[Rik]

All this talk of a quality leg-spinner...what about Chinaman for a leftie like me?

 

[marc71178]

Anyway how do you know they are only County Standard? Have they been given the chance to show that they are more? No? Then you don't have an argument.

The way to get wickets in Test Cricket is not necessarily the way to get wickets in County Cricket, similarly with runs - you need quality not quantity.

 

[marc71178]

Originally posted by chris.hinton
Lets hope that we can start buliding for the Future by Bringing Kids Though to test level

My Hinton plan will be written up shortly, i will send it to the E.C.B

Is it similar to that you posted on here?