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Matthew Hayden vs VVS Laxman

Who is the better test batsman?


  • Total voters
    30

PlayerComparisons

International Captain
Also, Laxman as a player is the hardest to pin down with an average. In 2009 and 2010, Gambhir, Sehwag and Tendulkar all took turns to be the No.1 batsman in the test rankings. I doubt Laxman cracked anything outside a top 10 ranking. Yet in the 2010/11 season, where he scored just one century and Tendulkar/Sehwag were having career years, Laxman, with his mid-40s batting average and all, was the most important batsman in India getting to and retaining our position as the No.1 test team for that season.

First, there was the SL 4th innings century. India were trailing 0-1 against Sri Lanka in Sri Lanka in the third and final test and had to chase 258 on a dangerously spinning Day 5 pitch. It was Murali's farewell series and SL clearly want to gift this win to him. Randiv who was then a mystery bowler who had just taken out Vijay, Sehwag, Dravid and Tendulkar on his own and the score was 62-4. SL are clearly looking like they'll wrap this thing by lunch. Laxman scores an aggressive match winning 103 (149)* in that situation to finish the match before tea and equalize the series.

Then, Laxman's 73 in this game against Australia. It was a worn down 5th day pitch where surviving looked incredibly difficult. India were chasing 215, Laxman had injured his back very visibly and only came out to bat at no.7 because of this. In fact, he was so injured he batted at No.10 in the first innings. India were 124/8 one hour into day 5 with 90+ runs needed, an injured Laxman batting with Ishant and only Ojha to come. Australia were paying 1.03 and India 27/1(!) at 124/8 which puts in perspective how dire the situation was. The game was basically done. Laxman then wins the game in 2 hours with 73* (79) with India 9 wickets down. Words don't do justice to how epic that innings was. I don't think any other batsmen i've ever watched could play that innings. It was a lot more absurd than a standard ATG 4th innings 150 or a 200+ score from behind imo because of how fragile the situation was. The 281 was a greater innings and probably the best innings of all time but not as insane as that 73.

It was arguably not even his best innings for the year - which was the 96 against SA in Durban when Steyn was absolutely rampant with nobody else on either side crossing the 30s (and Laxman scoring 38 in his other innings :laugh:) on either side in the entire game. Laxman did ****all for the entire series and averaged 30-odd but batting-wise single-handedly won us the only game we won that series by top scoring in both innings.

2010 also had his match-saving and series winning 91 against NZ from when the score was 15-5 within five minutes of his coming and Chris Martin was bowling the spell of his life.

In fact in every significant victory in 2010/11, which was the Indian test team's 'No.1' pinnacle year, Laxman played a significant role. While the stats and batting rankings will disagree, Laxman was the single most important player in us maintaining it, in my opinion, for that brief stretch of time. All those non-100 knocks basically would have entire series outcomes changed if not for them.

In a way, the strengths of Hayden/Sehwag and of Laxman are different, especially later in his career. They were the guys you want to score the massive **** you hundred in the first test of the first innings at home. Laxman was the guy you want batting for you when Steyn has 6/38 on a pitch where no player on either side has scored more than 35, your batting order has collapsed and you are desperate to have someone who will get you to harbor safely. The first is just as or even more important for a test side but the latter is more uniquely special imo.
Ok
 

capt_Luffy

International Coach
Also, Laxman as a player is the hardest to pin down with an average. In 2009 and 2010, Gambhir, Sehwag and Tendulkar all took turns to be the No.1 batsman in the test rankings. I doubt Laxman cracked anything outside a top 10 ranking. Yet in the 2010/11 season, where he scored just one century and Tendulkar/Sehwag were having career years, Laxman, with his mid-40s batting average and all, was the most important batsman in India getting to and retaining our position as the No.1 test team for that season.

First, there was the SL 4th innings century. India were trailing 0-1 against Sri Lanka in Sri Lanka in the third and final test and had to chase 258 on a dangerously spinning Day 5 pitch. It was Murali's farewell series and SL clearly want to gift this win to him. Randiv who was then a mystery bowler who had just taken out Vijay, Sehwag, Dravid and Tendulkar on his own and the score was 62-4. SL are clearly looking like they'll wrap this thing by lunch. Laxman scores an aggressive match winning 103 (149)* in that situation to finish the match before tea and equalize the series.

Then, Laxman's 73 in this game against Australia. It was a worn down 5th day pitch where surviving looked incredibly difficult. India were chasing 215, Laxman had injured his back very visibly and only came out to bat at no.7 because of this. In fact, he was so injured he batted at No.10 in the first innings. India were 124/8 one hour into day 5 with 90+ runs needed, an injured Laxman batting with Ishant and only Ojha to come. Australia were paying 1.03 and India 27/1(!) at 124/8 which puts in perspective how dire the situation was. The game was basically done. Laxman then wins the game in 2 hours with 73* (79) with India 9 wickets down. Words don't do justice to how epic that innings was. I don't think any other batsmen i've ever watched could play that innings. It was a lot more absurd than a standard ATG 4th innings 150 or a 200+ score from behind imo because of how fragile the situation was. The 281 was a greater innings and probably the best innings of all time but not as insane as that 73.

It was arguably not even his best innings for the year - which was the 96 against SA in Durban when Steyn was absolutely rampant with nobody else on either side crossing the 30s (and Laxman scoring 38 in his other innings :laugh:) on either side in the entire game. Laxman did ****all for the entire series and averaged 30-odd but batting-wise single-handedly won us the only game we won that series by top scoring in both innings.

2010 also had his match-saving and series winning 91 against NZ from a 15-5 collapse and India were staring at almost certainly being on the other end of a massive upset with Sehwag, Gambhir, Dravid, Tendulkar and Raina having made 13 runs between them of which Tendulkar scored 12.

In fact in every significant victory in 2010/11, which was that generation's Indian test team's 'No.1' pinnacle year, Laxman played a significant role. While the stats and batting rankings will disagree, Laxman was the single most important player in us maintaining it, in my opinion, for that brief stretch of time. All those non-100 knocks basically would have entire series outcomes changed if not for them.

In a way, the strengths of Hayden/Sehwag and of Laxman are different, especially later in his career. They were the guys you want to score the massive **** you double hundred in the first test of the first innings at home. Laxman was the guy you want batting for you when the opposing pacer has 6/38 on a pitch where no player on either side has scored more than 35, your batting order has collapsed and you are desperate to have someone to make the 74/188 who will get you to harbor safely. The first is arguably more important as the bread and butter for a great test side but the latter is more uniquely very, very special imo.
Couldn't had said any better
 

Jumno

State Regular
Also, Laxman as a player is the hardest to pin down with an average. In 2009 and 2010, Gambhir, Sehwag and Tendulkar all took turns to be the No.1 batsman in the test rankings. I doubt Laxman cracked anything outside a top 10 ranking. Yet in the 2010/11 season, where he scored just one century and Tendulkar/Sehwag were having career years, Laxman, with his mid-40s batting average and all, was the most important batsman in India getting to and retaining our position as the No.1 test team for that season.

First, there was the SL 4th innings century. India were trailing 0-1 against Sri Lanka in Sri Lanka in the third and final test and had to chase 258 on a dangerously spinning Day 5 pitch. It was Murali's farewell series and SL clearly want to gift this win to him. Randiv who was then a mystery bowler who had just taken out Vijay, Sehwag, Dravid and Tendulkar on his own and the score was 62-4. SL are clearly looking like they'll wrap this thing by lunch. Laxman scores an aggressive match winning 103 (149)* in that situation to finish the match before tea and equalize the series.

Then, Laxman's 73 in this game against Australia. It was a worn down 5th day pitch where surviving looked incredibly difficult. India were chasing 215, Laxman had injured his back very visibly and only came out to bat at no.7 because of this. In fact, he was so injured he batted at No.10 in the first innings. India were 124/8 one hour into day 5 with 90+ runs needed, an injured Laxman batting with Ishant and only Ojha to come. Australia were paying 1.03 and India 27/1(!) at 124/8 which puts in perspective how dire the situation was. The game was basically done. Laxman then wins the game in 2 hours with 73* (79) with India 9 wickets down. Words don't do justice to how epic that innings was. I don't think any other batsmen i've ever watched could play that innings. It was a lot more absurd than a standard ATG 4th innings 150 or a 200+ score from behind imo because of how fragile the situation was. The 281 was a greater innings and probably the best innings of all time but not as insane as that 73.

It was arguably not even his best innings for the year - which was the 96 against SA in Durban when Steyn was absolutely rampant with nobody else on either side crossing the 30s (and Laxman scoring 38 in his other innings :laugh:) on either side in the entire game. Laxman did ****all for the entire series and averaged 30-odd but batting-wise single-handedly won us the only game we won that series by top scoring in both innings.

2010 also had his match-saving and series winning 91 against NZ from a 15-5 collapse and India were staring at almost certainly being on the other end of a massive upset with Sehwag, Gambhir, Dravid, Tendulkar and Raina having made 13 runs between them of which Tendulkar scored 12.

In fact in every significant victory in 2010/11, which was that generation's Indian test team's 'No.1' pinnacle year, Laxman played a significant role. While the stats and batting rankings will disagree, Laxman was the single most important player in us maintaining it, in my opinion, for that brief stretch of time. All those non-100 knocks basically would have entire series outcomes changed if not for them.

In a way, the strengths of Hayden/Sehwag and of Laxman are different, especially later in his career. They were the guys you want to score the massive **** you double hundred in the first test of the first innings at home. Laxman was the guy you want batting for you when the opposing pacer has 6/38 on a pitch where no player on either side has scored more than 35, your batting order has collapsed and you are desperate to have someone to make the 74/188 who will get you to harbor safely. The first is arguably more important as the bread and butter for a great test side but the latter is more uniquely very, very special imo.
Great post

Add to that Laxman 167 in aus and 2001 281 eden garden knocks
 

shortpitched713

International Captain
Without commenting on the thread question, the premise of your post itself is incorrect. Laxman averaged 49.8 as a middle order batsman over 102 tests and a longer year duration than Hayden’s entire career. So if your comparison is off middle order Laxman to Opener Hayden, those are the numbers to go off. After that, it is the relative weight you attatch to their strengths that depends who you choose to pick as their raw stats are basically identical.

Laxman’s career average of 134 tests is brought down by his time playing out of his FC position as an opener early on for 10-15 tests which he admittedly sucked at and publicly hated. He then refused to play for the side unless picked the middle order after which the selectors relented. He then averaged more than 50 for more than a decade which overlaps with all of Hayden’s career as a first option opener and more. Therefore, it makes sense to compare that version of Laxman to Hayden just as it makes sense to contextualise Greenidge’s average with his peak decade as an opener when comparing him with the 3 great 00s openers.
Glad you consider the 3 openers of the 00s as great. They undoubtedly are, given the historical context and modern challenge of opening, even though CW has some sort of FTB bias against them ( and not for some middle order counterparts like Ponting or Dravid, for whatever reasons ).

Appreciate the context on VVS career as well, although I am getting 48.5, and not 49.8 as his middle order batting average. :


Virtually all of the productive part of it is in flat track era as well, just like Hayden so there's no advantage for era either. Still, even taking the contextualized average for Laxman in the middle order, it's still not too close for mine. I know I seem a bit extreme on this measure compared to others in the size of this opener tax, but my heuristic calculation has middle order runs needing to be multiplied by .894 to be compared to opener runs ( which I don't find skewing in openers favor', in practice, by the way). That number is a direct calculation of opener vs middle order runs scored in the modern era, in case you're thinking I pulled it out of my ass. 49 * .894 = 43.81, which you need a ****-load of context to compare to the 50.73 for Hayden. I think the context to justify bridging such a gap turns out to amount to little more than special pleading, and can in no way bridge it.
 

Coronis

International Coach
Glad you consider the 3 openers of the 00s as great. They undoubtedly are, given the historical context and modern challenge of opening, even though CW has some sort of FTB bias against them ( and not for some middle order counterparts like Ponting or Dravid, for whatever reasons ).
I don’t think its necessarily FTB, its more HTB. Either way, no Graeme Smith completely does not fit in the same category as the other two, I’ve never seen him accused of either on here.

Pitches in the 00’s were flat, there’s no doubt about that, and in the harder places to bat, guys like Ponting and Dravid have far superior records to Hayden and Sehwag.

Take NZ (which even had a poor attack at the time - sorry my Kiwi friends):

Dravid: 67
Ponting: 60
Smith: 57
Hayden: 28
Sehwag: 20
 

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