Mathew Hayden vs Virender Sehwag

[ohnoitsyou]

I think you don't need to tell me about me.

perfect answer.

 

[Jono]

Both are better than Graeme Smith

#thebigcalls

Hayden vs. Sehwag vs. Smith vs. Langer vs. Cook.

Forgetting complimenting etc., which 2 openers are the best in the last 15 years?

 

[Teja.]

Hayden vs. Sehwag vs. Smith vs. Langer vs. Cook.

Forgetting complimenting etc., which 2 openers are the best in the last 15 years?

I reckon I'd take Smith and Sehwag, in that order.

I recently thought about this and realized I rated Greenidge higher than all of these guys.

 

[Viscount Tom]

Smith and Langer for me.

Edit: Having said that.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/5616.html?class=1;template=results;type=batting
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/35263.html?class=1;template=results;type=batting
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/6256.html?class=1;template=results;type=batting

3rd and 4th innings of Hayden, Sehwag and Langer he's a fair bit ahead of both, surprised me a bit that.


2nd Edit:
Average of openers in the 3rd and 4th innings since '95 Look who's top. Also look who's 4th,
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...5;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

 

[Dawood Ahmad]

dawood! i just got to read your post on another thread and came to know that you are a ninth grade student.

first of all, it is great to have youngsters posting in this forum.a hearty welcome to you. i am looking forward to sharing our mutual love for the game with you in this forum.

since you are very serious about your opinion, I realize that I should be more sincere in my replies to you.

so here is my take.

i have come to realize that it is impossible to reach a particular level of success in a competitive industry unless there is some steel in you. international sport is very very competitive.

both sehwag and hayden have scored more than 7000 runs in over 100 tests. they have scored hundreds against all test playing nations more than once. they average around the 50 run mark. all this means they both were exceptionally good. they are unlikely to miss out on the top 100 test batsmen of all time list.

to be so good, they both must have had a lot of steel in them. so it will be impossible to compare them on their courage, self belief, positive attitude etc. they must have had these in abundance otherwise they would not have done so well for so long.

it is perfectly legitimate to compare them on more tangible cricketing elements though. their style, success in all conditions, technical glitches, technical strengths, stats, and their impact on their team performance. so if you want to keep this debate on track, and you must because this is a legitimate comparison, then please don't bring in vague terms and definitions.

it ultimately boils down to the bat swing connecting with the ball at the correct time in the correct angle. your anticipation, hand-eye coordination, foot movement, forearm power, timing and placement all combine to do exactly this. because of individual physical attributes, we succeed and fail in different degrees.

for example, i hit myself in the toe every time i bat. my longest innings in the past 12 years lasted seven balls, all lobbed at knee height.

viru could stand and deliver his shots because he had great hand eye coordination and his timing was impeccable. without moving his feet he could reach the ball at the right time with the right part of his bat. this style became his weakness in bouncing and swinging conditions. still, he scored hundreds in england, australia and south africa.

the muscular, front foot pressing attacking style of hayden's got him thousands of runs. but against fast swing bowlers of the distant past like marshall or imran he would have struggled a lot. he was lucky that he didn't play ambrose and wasim at their peaks. but again, he scored a hundred against pakistan in sharjah in extremely unfriendly conditions. that innings must rank amongst the very best ever in test cricket history.

1. I am grade 10 student.
2. It is better to see player's potential than looking at stats to rate him, since I think some of Hayden's innings would have continued for a long time where he was not out, while there was no such case with Sehwag.
3. I can't predict him against these bowlers as cricket is a game of mindsets and I don't read them.
4. To be sincere, there was no need to include the highlighted portion in you post but anyways, its a good post.

 

[Jono]

I reckon I'd take Smith and Sehwag, in that order.

I recently thought about this and realized I rated Greenidge higher than all of these guys.

Yeah cool. I have Smith #1 with Hayden and Sehwag impossible to split. Cook's got time though.

 

[Red]

I'd take Smith and Langer, with a big longing for Sehwag. But it all conditions against any opponents, Smith and Langer for me.

 

[harsh.ag]

I would take Hayden and Sehwag on good batting surfaces.

And Smith and Cook on difficult wickets.

For all weathers, I will take Hayden and Smith.

 

[Jono]

Its an odd criteria, but if you were to take any of those batsmen when "out of form", you'd take Smith almost every time. I reckon plenty of his gun knocks came when he was playing like crap.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Smith and Sehwag for me. Hayden pretty close but can't pick two ugly left handers.

 

[weldone]

I'm voting for Sehwag only because I find the OP annoying.

 

[Jassy]

Cook's not that much better than Sehwag or Hayden vs top quality attacks in difficult conditions...if at all he is better which is arguable in itself IMO. Would take both Sehwag and Hayden over Cook, Smith the best of the lot though.

 

[watson]

Graeme Smith V India was mediocre both home and away.

Tests = 15
Ave = 38
100s = 0

Wonder why he couldn't crack a ton after 15 Tests as that's normally plenty for a class batsman?

 

[Jono]

Graeme Smith V India was mediocre both home and away.

Tests = 15
Ave = 38
100s = 0

Wonder why he couldn't crack a ton after 15 Tests as that's normally plenty for a class batsman?

 

[NasserFan207]

I never cared for either, but thats probably because I'm a bowler, lol.

Loved nothing more than watching both fail when the ball moved of the straight. Sehwag slightly more comical in this department.

 

[Dan]

Give more details.

Saying Hayden "could" strike hard doesn't mean he "used to" strike hard. He wold take advantage of his ability to build the innings and achieve some goals.

I claim he does, I have qantified.

None of this makes any sense. You're saying the ability to strike the ball hard has nothing to do with striking the ball hard, but is actually about building an innings? The goalposts aren't so much as moving at the moment, rather they're doing the foxtrot in the middle of the field while the players stand around utterly befuddled. It's just madness.

And no, you never quantified that, you asserted it. Unless ESPNCricinfo has retroactively analysed their Test innings through their Control % statistic, you cannot possibly hope to prove that Hayden middled the ball more than Sehwag.

As for Sehwag murdering spinners for fun, take a look at these innings:
3rd Test: India v Sri Lanka at Mumbai (BS), Dec 2-6, 2009 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo -- 293 at well above a run a ball vs. Murali and Herath, on a pitch where 18 of the 29 wickets to fall were to spin, and Harbhajan/Ojha opened the bowling in the second innings. Probably a road, but still must have been taking some turn (inb4 invalidated because MS Dhoni tonned up).

2nd Test: Sri Lanka v India at Galle, Jul 31-Aug 3, 2008 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo -- 201 in quick time vs. Murali + Mendis when he was new and dangerous, on a pitch where only 9 wickets fell to pace in the entire game and spinners utterly dominated, and the rest of the Indian batting order collapsed.

2nd Test: India v Sri Lanka at Kanpur, Nov 24-27, 2009 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo -- 131 (122) vs. Murali, Herath & early Mendis, not a bad spin attack at all

1st Test: Sri Lanka v India at Galle, Jul 18-22, 2010 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo -- Another ton striking at 90-odd when the rest of the innings collapsed vs. Murali

3rd Test: Sri Lanka v India at Colombo (PSS), Aug 3-7, 2010 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo -- Run-a-ball ton again, admittedly with a slightly more benign spin pairing of Randiv and not-so-early Mendis

3rd Test: Australia v India at Melbourne, Dec 26-30, 2003 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo -- 195 vs. Australia at the MCG, making over half of India's total and booping Stuart MacGill over the boundary enough to get him removed from the attack.

1st Test: India v New Zealand at Ahmedabad, Nov 4-8, 2010 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo -- 10 wickets to NZ spin in the match, Sehwag makes a quick ton (admittedly this is a stretch, but look at the economy rate of Jeets).

Meanwhile Hayden is remembered as a good player of spin for that one good 2001 tour of India. Sure, he was great at tackling spin, but Sehwag could dominate to such an extent that Hayden couldn't.

 

[Dawood Ahmad]

None of this makes any sense. You're saying the ability to strike the ball hard has nothing to do with striking the ball hard, but is actually about building an innings? The goalposts aren't so much as moving at the moment, rather they're doing the foxtrot in the middle of the field while the players stand around utterly befuddled. It's just madness.

And no, you never quantified that, you asserted it. Unless ESPNCricinfo has retroactively analysed their Test innings through their Control % statistic, you cannot possibly hope to prove that Hayden middled the ball more than Sehwag.

I have quantified that:-
1. Hayden has won more matches than Sehwag.
2. Hayden has much more balls out the middle of the bat than Sehwag.

How is this related to these innings?

Secondly, I said Hayden usually didn't use his ability to strike hard, rather he would build the innings by rotating the strike, finding the gaps etc. which means that he didn't do much hitting.

You are relating control with middling.

 

[Dan]

I have quantified that:-
1. Hayden has won more matches than Sehwag.
2. Hayden has much more balls out the middle of the bat than Sehwag.

How is this related to these innings?

Secondly, I said Hayden usually didn't use his ability to strike hard, rather he would build the innings by rotating the strike, finding the gaps etc.

1 is questionable, and you cannot prove 2.

Those innings were in response for your request for proof that Sehwag could dominate spin.

And have you ever actually watched a Matthew Hayden innings? He was better at rotating the strike than Sehwag, yes, but that isn't exactly glowing praise on his skills in that area; he was undoubtedly a power player who was better at hitting boundaries than working the ball into gaps. At home, he'd start walking down the pitch to hit quality quicks over their heads, typically within the first session of Tests. He was by no means an accumulator in the Mike Hussey mould because he's better than Sehwag in that aspect of batsmanship; Sehwag just flat out didn't have those skills whatsoever.

If you had a spectrum running from 'Shotless Grinder' to 'Cultured Accumulator' to 'Danny Morrison DLF Maximum Hitter', Sehwag is basically off the top end of the scale, with Hayden still right up there -- just a couple of notches back.

 

[indiaholic]

1 is questionable, and you cannot prove 2.

Those innings were in response for your request for proof that Sehwag could dominate spin.

And have you ever actually watched a Matthew Hayden innings? He was better at rotating the strike than Sehwag, yes, but that isn't exactly glowing praise on his skills in that area; he was undoubtedly a power player who was better at hitting boundaries than working the ball into gaps. At home, he'd start walking down the pitch to hit quality quicks over their heads, typically within the first session of Tests. He was by no means an accumulator in the Mike Hussey mould because he's better than Sehwag in that aspect of batsmanship; Sehwag just flat out didn't have those skills whatsoever.

If you had a spectrum running from 'Shotless Grinder' to 'Cultured Accumulator' to 'Danny Morrison DLF Maximum Hitter', Sehwag is basically off the top end of the scale, with Hayden still right up there -- just a couple of notches back.

Serious question Dan, is this the first time you have encountered Dawood Ahmed?

 

[OverratedSanity]

Tbf, Sehwag does mainpulate the field and rotate the strike against spinners quite wll, when he isnt smashing boundaries every second ball. So saying he doesnt have that skill at all is a bit false.

Check out his Galle double... kept working balls from Murali into the offside against the spin